[GS] That Black Death Scenario...

[The Kingmaker]

Seriously.

I want that Walled District in the base game. Plagues and Plague Doctors too, though perhaps not as drastic as in the scenario. Just loving the art and the concepts.

Keep the Keep and the Hospital and swap out the Mass Grave for something less morbid... like a dungeon.

This totally seems like a testing ground for XP3, don’t you think?

 

[darkace77450]

This totally seems like a testing ground for XP3, don’t you think?

I sure hope so. And I too liked the district and hope plagues find their way into the base game.

 

[cvb]

This totally seems like a testing ground for XP3, don’t you think?

No. I think, Dave McDonough (developer of the 2 scenarios) was fairly clear in the stream, that the 'Black Death Scenario' - rules are quite different, ie. that the AIplayers cannot handle such a scenario well (meaning at all!).

OTOH he mentioned half a dozen times, that ALL necessary is to find in the Lua file of the scenario - so everybody (modder) can / shall use that for info how to make an individual scenario / mod ...

I like this proposal and think, a very toned down version of pathogens should be active the whole game long ...
EXCLUSIVELY on human controlled tiles though, because 1) the AIplayers cannot (and will not) handle this well & 2) that adds a layer of difficulty some players are looking for
and 3) I'm sure, that is the best form of implementation for 'Black Death' (besides a standalone scenario) & 4) far too many players would shout "cheating" as FXS could integrate THAT into the base game ...

 

[The Kingmaker]

I think a toned down version of health/plague should be implemented w/ a slider akin to what we have w/ the disasters to set how much it will come into play.

I think the walled district could handle more than just health. It’s a very good option for enforcing loyalty and public order

 

[bbbt]

I think a toned down version of health/plague should be implemented w/ a slider akin to what we have w/ the disasters to set how much it will come into play.

Dial the plagues up to 11 and add a new "co-op survival" victory type. Civilization 6: Pandemic.

 

[Monthar]

In the base game just rename the Mass Grave to Veteran's Cemetery.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Couple of things.
In the Ancient/Classical Eras, plagues in cities were so common that they are virtually Every Turn phenomena, so a plague massive enough to appear 'in game' should be fairly rare.
On the other hand, there are several factors that increase plague frequency and severity: size of city, lack of Sewers/sanitation, long range Trade Routes bringing in vectors from all over. The game could also have semi-random 'Plague Generators' - places that spawn or mutate a particularly virulent pathogen, and if you happen to be Trading with them, it will head your way like a Homing Pigeon (or 'Omen Pigeon', a Bird of Fowl Luck indeed)

Mass Grave could be renamed Quarantine Quarter - the idea of a Quarantine to reduce plague spread was invented in Europe during the medieval plague years: might as well use it.

As with every other Negative added to the game, the severity has to be reduced to Manageable Level or the gamer has to have some means of alleviating the Negative aspects without mangling everything else he/she is trying to do in the game. This could be as simple as being able to build Aqueducts/clean water sources/special 'Medical' Buildings early on in the game, to having a Physician (Civilian) Support Unit who can reduce Plague Effects, to even having some Great People that include Great Physicians like Galen or Maimonides that can 'clear' X number of cities or tiles of Plague. There could also be Cards associated with certain Civics that alleviate Plague events: anybody for a Bring Out Your Dead Wild Card?

 

[The Kingmaker]

I agree. I think everything will pivot on a new “health” metric. You should start out fine as long as you have fresh water and multiple food sources. Droughts and famines could weaken your civ’s health and make it susceptible to plague. On the other hand, a rapidly growing high pop density city w/ no aqueduct or sewers should be a filthy mess burgeoning with disease, also leading to plague.

Full blown plagues should be as rare as volcanic eruptions, unless you haven’t been taking care of your people.

Maintain the balance with proper sanitation: the new “medicinal herbs” resource can help in the ancient era, as can the plague doctor unit and hospital building in the Middle Ages, and new pasteurization and vaccination techs in the industrial/modern era, which give a health bonus Civ-wide when researched.

Disease can run rife in any era given the right conditions, whether the Black Death in the Middle Ages or epidemics in the embattled trenches of WWI.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I agree. I think everything will pivot on a new “health” metric. You should start out fine as long as you have fresh water and multiple food sources. Droughts and famines could weaken your civ’s health and make it susceptible to plague. On the other hand, a rapidly growing high pop density city w/ no aqueduct or sewers should be a filthy mess burgeoning with disease, also leading to plague.

Full blown plagues should be as rare as volcanic eruptions, unless you haven’t been taking care of your people.

Maintain the balance with proper sanitation: the new “medicinal herbs” resource can help in the ancient era, as can the plague doctor unit and hospital building in the Middle Ages, and new pasteurization and vaccination techs in the industrial/modern era, which give a health bonus Civ-wide when researched.

Disease can run rife in any era given the right conditions, whether the Black Death in the Middle Ages or epidemics in the embattled trenches of WWI.

I suggested in another Thread a 'Balanced Diet' mechanism for food-based amenities, but the same thing could be applied to a Health metric even better:
Basically, food Resources are divided into three groups:
Meat/Protein: Cattle, Sheep, Fish, Crab, Deer
'Bread': Wheat, Rice (a good excuse to add Potato and Maize Resources here)
'Flavor': Spices, Bananas, Citrus, Cinnamon, Cloves
Having just 1 Group represented would give you a relatively low level of health/Amenity. 2 would be better, having all 3 would give your population a high level of Health and disease resistance.

Introducing this would almost demand that we also introduce Trading of Bonus Resources as well as Strategic or Amenity Resources which I believe would not be a Bad Thing at all: Trade is still somewhat under-emphasized compared to its historical importance.

Amount of Food would also contribute or detract from 'Health'. If you are maxed out, a Drought Disaster could turn into a Health disaster as lack of food weakens the population and brings on an Epidemic.

There are a number of Buildings and 'civic situations' from Ancient Era on that could also contribute to Health levels:
Baths, Thermal Baths
Mill and Granary, both representing more efficient processing and distribution of Food
'Clean' Water, represented by access to river or oasis or lake water or an Aqueduct.
Sewers

Techs like Sanitation, Chemistry, or Scientific Method could also have a Health modifier attached to them - or Policy Cards could be available with those Techs to introduce a potential Health Component.

 

[acluewithout]

Yes to Walled District in the base game.

I don't really want plague in every game.

Instead, in additional to the current natural disasters, I've love to have sort of "Global Disasters". These would be globe spanning events that randomly happen during the game - maybe only one to three max. These would pop up a bit like emergencies, and you'd have to then deal with whatever issue they create, perhaps even linked to WC.

Something like the current plague mechanics would work well as one of these emergencies, and they might play out very differently in different eras - e.g. black plague in Medieval times versus Ebola in more modern eras. But you could also have other things like Fascism or Communism or Democracy (think Orange Revolution) spreading across the globe, or a financial crisis, or sudden shortage of resources. The "upside" of these global emergencies would be the chance to earn Diplomatic Favour or DV Points or Era Score etc (and, also, perhaps come out in relatively better condition then your opponents).

But yeah. I don't want plagues in every game. That would get super tedious.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I suggested in another Thread a 'Balanced Diet' mechanism for food-based amenities, but the same thing could be applied to a Health metric even better:
Basically, food Resources are divided into three groups:
Meat/Protein: Cattle, Sheep, Fish, Crab, Deer
'Bread': Wheat, Rice (a good excuse to add Potato and Maize Resources here)
'Flavor': Spices, Bananas, Citrus, Cinnamon, Cloves
Having just 1 Group represented would give you a relatively low level of health/Amenity. 2 would be better, having all 3 would give your population a high level of Health and disease resistance.

Introducing this would almost demand that we also introduce Trading of Bonus Resources as well as Strategic or Amenity Resources which I believe would not be a Bad Thing at all: Trade is still somewhat under-emphasized compared to its historical importance.

Amount of Food would also contribute or detract from 'Health'. If you are maxed out, a Drought Disaster could turn into a Health disaster as lack of food weakens the population and brings on an Epidemic.

There are a number of Buildings and 'civic situations' from Ancient Era on that could also contribute to Health levels:
Baths, Thermal Baths
Mill and Granary, both representing more efficient processing and distribution of Food
'Clean' Water, represented by access to river or oasis or lake water or an Aqueduct.
Sewers

Techs like Sanitation, Chemistry, or Scientific Method could also have a Health modifier attached to them - or Policy Cards could be available with those Techs to introduce a potential Health Component.

Really liking these ideas.

Olives and Grapes could have a very modest health bonus for the use of oil and wine in dressing wounds and in broadening diets. Citrus of course would prevent scurvy.

The Pairadaeza should also give a modest health bonus. There should be a regular improvement “garden” that is a lesser version of that for non-Persians.

I would love more sophisticated trade in the game... and less (and I guess, simultaneously more) micro-managing. I’m really getting tired of AI leaders constantly offering me rubbish deals.

If you send a trader in a mission, you should choose how much you’re investing and what trade goods you’re sending. If you know what’s in demand in your neighbors’ kingdoms, you should be able to both benefit and profit. If you have a really rare commodity (silk, spices, etc.), you should be able to make a killing.

Small, moderate and large trade missions should reap proportional rewards with greater risk of barbarians robbing you on the bigger missions. (Send guards with your caravans.)

Speaking of which, have traders upgrade to caravans in the Middle Ages. Build caravanserais to motivate foreign traders to come to your safer trade routes.

City states and great leaders with unique commodities shouldn’t just give them to you, they should give you a monopoly on trading that item. As it is, you never have enough to trade.

To bring this full circle, trade routes should open you up to strange foreign diseases...

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Haven't tried the scenario yet but still give you a like. I hope this thread gets huge so the devs notice it and give us our 3rd expansion

 

[Equilin]

It was intended to further modding options anyway, i really like the scenario (although Deity is quite nightmare)
Tie pandemic to housing issue is what i would go with. Cities at full housing (yes that's rare) have a chance to get the plague outbreak (plague does not need to be named), lasting 2-3 turns each (to give it a chance to actually spread), and cures arrive from industrial era onward. And instead of allowing only human to get it, make higher level AI less affected/unaffected by it.

 

[cvb]

In the Ancient/Classical Eras, plagues in cities were so common that they are virtually Every Turn phenomena, so a plague massive enough to appear 'in game' should be fairly rare.

On the other hand, there are several factors that increase plague frequency and severity: size of city, lack of Sewers/sanitation, long range Trade Routes bringing in vectors from all over

Gamey solution: Let the latter be a permanent single tile, slowly wandering in the human territory (randomly, prefering roads 66%), which sometimes f(citySize, sanitationLack) grows up to 3 adjacent tiles ...

... and the former massive outbreaks, which happen randomly, but exactly once per era.
("Sometimes you have to protect the player from himself and so we allowed in 'Pirates' saving only with the ship in harbour." )

the severity has to be reduced to Manageable Level

The healthcare district begins with the shaman's tent as first building in ancient era ... until 'cure of cancer' hospital in future era.
To civic & techtree add 'leaf' techs cf. scenario techs & civics, units
Diversity of food, fresh water: ^health / Droughts, jungle: _health ... cf. civ4

Great Physicians like Galen or Maimonides

... Paracelsus, Louis Pasteur, Robert Koch

i really like the scenario (although Deity is quite nightmare)

I understand, but what else should happen, when a human plays at 'Deity'??

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Funnily enough, I was discussing this matter just yesterday!

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ideas-for-adding-plague-and-earthquakes.642105/

 

[God of Kings]

I would like to know when SquareTriangleMouse, PotatoMcwhiskey, or someone else released a successful Deity playthrough of this scenario.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Gamey solution: Let the latter be a permanent single tile, slowly wandering in the human territory (randomly, prefering roads 66%), which sometimes f(citySize, sanitationLack) grows up to 3 adjacent tiles ...

... and the former massive outbreaks, which happen randomly, but exactly once per era.
("Sometimes you have to protect the player from himself and so we allowed in 'Pirates' saving only with the ship in harbour." )

The problem, at least for me, is that a visible 'tile' of Plague wandering the map is the Essense of Gamey, not the opposite. Also, there are numerous potential 'sources' of a plague, some local, some not, and almost all dependent on a host of factors not directly related to the 'disease vector' itself.
And much of this can be 'invisible' to the player: a % chance of Outbreak based on a set of numerical factors attached to situational factors: + .3 per Floodplain, Marsh, or Rain Forest tile in the city radius (thank you, Aussie Lurker, for reminding me of those factors!), +.5 for each Trade Route coming into the city from a Foreign Origin. -1.0 for having an Aqueduct, +.5 for every population point in excess of X (with X changing by Era, perhaps).

That links your chance of having to deal with Plague to specifics that you have some modicum of control over, not the random chance of being in the path of a wandering Tile of Plague.

The healthcare district begins with the shaman's tent as first building in ancient era ... until 'cure of cancer' hospital in future era.
To civic & techtree add 'leaf' techs cf. scenario techs & civics, units
Diversity of food, fresh water: ^health / Droughts, jungle: _health ... cf. civ4

... Paracelsus, Louis Pasteur, Robert Koch

I am leery of adding yet another District to the panoply gamers have to try to find room on the map for already: especially when it may become a District that every city over a certain size will Require sooner or later. Also, Abatement factors for disease include a wide variety of measures, from explicit (Hospitals, Sewers, Herbalists' Huts) to Implicit (Aqueducts, less crowded housing, well-fed population, distance to the nearest Malarial Marsh) so that putting them into a single District would be a serious problem.

On the other hand, many things in the game already could have a + or - Health/Plague effect added to them without requiring a Specialized Response like an explicit District: Sewers and Aqueducts already mentioned, Granaries and Water Mills for food supply, the Sanitation Tech, etc. We could add some Explicit Health Cards in various categories (Wild, Economic categories come to mind) like Public Clinics (costs Gold or Production, Reduces Plague start and effects) or a Medical School option when you build Universities.

And, as anyone can see from the fact that each of us was able to name several Great Doctors from several Eras right away, we could actually maintain a separate Great Person category of Great Physicians available in each Era after the Ancient that could provide both a General relief from Plague (keeping one in your Civ reduces Start of Plague by X percentage) and specific relief (expending a Great Physician stops Plague in one city, reduces it by X percentage in all cities within X tiles)

 

[The Kingmaker]

The aqueduct is already a “health” district of sorts. Maybe we add the health buildings to that district, since it doesn’t currently have upgrades? Ancient baths, then choice between apothecary and alchemist, and later hospital?

Or maybe the hospital stays in the walled district, which acts as a security district vs disaster, invasion, espionage and plague.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The aqueduct is already a “health” district of sorts. Maybe we add the health buildings to that district, since it doesn’t currently have upgrades? Ancient baths, then choice between apothecary and alchemist, and later hospital?

Or maybe the hospital stays in the walled district, which acts as a security district vs disaster, invasion, espionage and plague.

Aqueduct District:

First Tier Building: Bath, Thermae, Hammam, etc: Buildable in Classical Era
Second Tier Building: Hospital: Buildable in Industrial Era
Third Tier Building: Medical Research Center: Buildable in the Atomic Era

Possible Health-Related Wonders:

Great Baths of Caracalla (Classical)
OR the current Great Bath could get an added Health benefit, which would make much more sense than the 'floodplain benefit' it has now.
That Flood Control benefit could go to a new Wonder: Great Dam of Marib, also buildable in the Ancient Era
Medical School at Palermo (Medieval)
Pasteur Clinic (Industrial)
Mayo Clinic (Modern)
Center for Disease Control (Atomic)

These are just Top-of-my-Head thoughts. Hospital and Medical Research Center could also spawn major Adjacency Bonuses if next to a Campus with a University. A District with a Bath next to a Geothermal Feature could also get both Amenity/Happiness and Health adjacency benefits because, basically, you can now build a 'Thermal' type bath there.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Aqueduct District:

First Tier Building: Bath, Thermae, Hammam, etc: Buildable in Classical Era
Second Tier Building: Hospital: Buildable in Industrial Era
Third Tier Building: Medical Research Center: Buildable in the Atomic Era

Possible Health-Related Wonders:

Great Baths of Caracalla (Classical)
OR the current Great Bath could get an added Health benefit, which would make much more sense than the 'floodplain benefit' it has now.
That Flood Control benefit could go to a new Wonder: Great Dam of Marib, also buildable in the Ancient Era
Medical School at Palermo (Medieval)
Pasteur Clinic (Industrial)
Mayo Clinic (Modern)
Center for Disease Control (Atomic)

These are just Top-of-my-Head thoughts. Hospital and Medical Research Center could also spawn major Adjacency Bonuses if next to a Campus with a University. A District with a Bath next to a Geothermal Feature could also get both Amenity/Happiness and Health adjacency benefits because, basically, you can now build a 'Thermal' type bath there.

Well yes, the Black Death Scenario is a great launching off point, but it is still a scenario-so mechanics would need to be adjusted in moving it to the main game. Instead of plague being always visible on every tile, instead just have a warning the tile is disease impacted in the tool-tip. Likewise, the settler lens could show you which tiles are most likely to generate disease, in the same way we are warned of tiles subject to flooding.

I agree an entirely new district is not neccessary, but extra buildings for the City Center, Aqueduct District & possibly even the Neighbourhood district-with both generic & disease combatting effects-would be a must.