The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[baptiste]

Each time the same thing : the day before i post a list of points to ameliorate things you post a new version

Whatever i'll do it, some things stay true, other have been changed.

Victory conditions
The cultural victory is really "trash" to obtain, much harder than in 1.8 and befoe mostly because of the conjunction of 2 aspects :
- science slower (nice point)
- the "+100% culture" civic is coming veeeeeeery late in the game (even is forum is nice, the effect is not really comparable)
If you want to be able to have cultural victory, it should be possible to switch this one with aristocracy on the tech tree, even if the court stills stays at the end as a building.


Units
Carthagenian elephant and legionaries were ways too powerful. Great to have them changed this way, no more city attack for legionaries, no more withdrawal for elephants. Perfect. I would whatever suggest 2 changes on legionaries :
- that you can follow building legionaries even when you have heavy armor so you can upgrade then and still have the ennemy territory move
- the ennemy road moe bonus should not be affected by the "road building" bonus move. This is imo much too powerful to move so much in ennemy territory.

The IA makes bad use of troops for city defense, with may archers and few med/heavy units. Even a very strong IA is usually butter inside cities. Strong and numerous troops outside, but few in cities.

Civilizations
- I cannot say why, but Viriato became a clown since 1.9, unable to really survive conquest. And when you play him, very very trash. I would suggest to give him an help with a luxury or food ressource near Numantia to help him not being so much late in science.
- french territory is "too good", the consequence is that the player controliing it becomes really really strong since this territoy allows a terrific GP or cottage farming. I would suggest either to put more dense forest on it, or better to remove some of the special food ressource
- egypt is really strong at the beginning but usually becomes weak because of the very low production. i find is quite an "amusing" situation when you play egypt, challenging. But when you play a neighbour of egypt, i find is "too easy" to let them find every religion and then conquer them


Buildings
Congratulations, you yet changed most of what i would have to say about buildings.

And, again and again, congratulation for this marvelous mod ;p

Got to test this new map :]

 

[thamis]

I appreciate the progress of this mod, and the work you do, but wouldnt it be wise to wait with prioritizing the heroes consept until after Warlords? Or is this heroes consept intended to be completely different from the Great Generals?

Heroes are going to work differently from Warlords. They are essentially a stronger unit.

 

[davbenbak]

Could the Greek settler's starting point on the huge map be moved down one space? First I would like to be able to build naval units from my Greek capital (I realize it's not Athens but...), secondly I have this anal obsession about my city boundries not overlaping in order to maximize growth and the cities just seem to fit better on the Greek penisula if Mycenea (sp) was one space lower.

Will there be a huge map of the Roman Empire area?

 

[Dionysius]

would like to add i`m trying to make one right now, in addition to others.
EDIT: didnt realise one was in production.
was only starting the bmps anyway.

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

- I cannot say why, but Viriato became a clown since 1.9, unable to really survive conquest. And when you play him, very very trash. I would suggest to give him an help with a luxury or food ressource near Numantia to help him not being so much late in science.
- french territory is "too good", the consequence is that the player controliing it becomes really really strong since this territoy allows a terrific GP or cottage farming. I would suggest either to put more dense forest on it, or better to remove some of the special food ressource

Things will soon be different in the western Mediterranean, with the introducing of the Tartessians in the southern part of Iberia. I guess the resources must be changed somewhat so no one becomes too weak, but then there will be three civs (Tartessos, Iberian Tribes and Gaul) competing for the good land of southwest Europe, and hopefully the Tartessians will give Carthage a match in northern africa as well.

 

[schlappi]

I have to admit i am a little disappointed about the new map, since i was expecting a larger version of the whole mediterranean area, including the rhine area and the britannic isles, since you announced the britons would be playable with "the larger map".
Is this a misunderstanding, and the larger map will come with 2.0?

Edit: There is no offense intended towards the creator of the map, it looks great - i just love to play the romans and carthagians more

 

[thamis]

I have to admit i am a little disappointed about the new map, since i was expecting a larger version of the whole mediterranean area, including the rhine area and the britannic isles, since you announced the britons would be playable with "the larger map".
Is this a misunderstanding, and the larger map will come with 2.0?

Edit: There is no offense intended towards the creator of the map, it looks great - i just love to play the romans and carthagians more

The huge map which even includes Ireland and Bactria is 50% done. I'm working on it.

 

[thamis]

Could the Greek settler's starting point on the huge map be moved down one space? First I would like to be able to build naval units from my Greek capital (I realize it's not Athens but...), secondly I have this anal obsession about my city boundries not overlaping in order to maximize growth and the cities just seem to fit better on the Greek penisula if Mycenea (sp) was one space lower.

Will there be a huge map of the Roman Empire area?

No, we're not moving them down, because Mycenae was not a coastal city. You can always build another coastal city somewhere else!

And yes, Roman Empire (and more) huge map is in the works, 50% done.

 

[baptiste]

Testing the small version of the scenario/map i have a strange "52 turns left" in 590 BC. It might be possible it appeared 48 turns ago, cannot tell since i was at war i was not really looking right upper part ;p

I guess it comes from me, if someone could help.

[edit : reloaded 1090 bc = 119 turns left, monarch marathon speed]

Same thing with large map : 100 turn left in 90 BC, same monarch/marathon

 

[Broken Hawk]

I downloaded TAM v1.92 yesterday and played the MOD for the first time. I noticed that on the three available maps that each civ starts out with a settler and a warrior building cities wherever they can. Are there any maps/scenarios available or in the pipeline that start which each selected civ having a number of cities placed in the correct geographic location, each civ more OR less balanced and settlers disabled? It was quite common is see such scenarios as I have described made for Civ II. I thought they were a lot of fun. Thanks.

 

[Pvblivs]

A scenario like the Rise of Rome scenario (in C3C and Warlords) with preconfigured cities but allowed settlers would be great.

But that should easily be possible with TAM and the Civ3 WorldBuilder. Maybe I'll look at it the next weeks. Now the weather is too good for this

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

TAM v1.92 is finally there. It fixes a lot of issues, including AI, technology speed and unit balance. Follow the download link on the first page of this thread. Only one mirror is up now, others coming soon.

There are two new maps, and all maps now start with “TAM…”:
- TAM Mediterranean (Small)
- TAM Magna Graecia (Huge)

New Unit Balance:
- Archers: High of collateral damage, good vs Javelineers, high withdraw chance, can defend cities.

- All Archer-type units given +50% when attacking Javelineer-type units , collateral damage effectiveness doubled
- Dacian Peltast takes the place of the Armored Javelineer
- Spearmen: Terrain defenses removed, given +10% city defense, Mycenaean Hoplite given +15% city defense (Kambsor nothing)
- Armored Spearmen: Terrain defenses removed, given +15% city defense
- Pikeman: Terrain defense removed, bonus vs. Cavalry units reduced to 25% (from 50%)
- Shrines: No longer give global religion commerce, or religion spread, but +2 commerce and +4 culture

QUOTE]

Archers need more city str boost.
Spearmen already stronger than archers...why more city defense boost?

Do the Archer and Skirmisher bonuses work in defense mode also?

Finally, shrines, and other commercial buildings and others...

Did I miss the discussion, concerning how "imballancing" these were before???

I admit, that as Babylon, it's easy to stay at 100% tech the whole game, and actually continue to make money. However, what about the other civs? Some civs will be financially crippled now. Additionally, I didn't mind how quickly the religions spread. Perhaps they could spread a little slower, but let's reflect on how religions spread in history. Every new major religion did spread like wild fire, and the more advanced religions spread even more quickly.

Additionally, the capitol of a religion, the holy sites/centers of religious power, do earn tithes from their sister churches. Religion is also a huge business. I see no reason why this should have been changed.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Any plans on implementing ancient Iran? v.2.0

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Any plans on implementing ancient Iran? v.2.0

The Persians are already in, as are the Medes, but right now they're only playable on a random map as no scenario/map stretches over that eastern part of the fertile crescent.

 

[Pvblivs]

I admit, that as Babylon, it's easy to stay at 100% tech the whole game, and actually continue to make money. However, what about the other civs? Some civs will be financially crippled now.

Play it and you will experience it differently. In your oppinion civs may be financially crippled. I observed that this isn't at all with many greater civs.

Additionally, the capitol of a religion, the holy sites/centers of religious power, do earn tithes from their sister churches. Religion is also a huge business. I see no reason why this should have been changed.

Not everything may be "historically accurate" though the impact of religion is big enough. Concerning the "huge" business: You are reflecting on the middleage and modern churches and seem to forget religion does not bring very much to the state.
Riches in ancient times were mainly provided through richness in resources and through conquering those resource-rich neighbours that forgot to protect their riches. Like the ancient city of Tartessia (Iberia), rich enough that it is discussed today that this might have even been Atlantis. Did you ever hear about immense riches from the center of the Olympian gods? Ok, they had temples and maybe some priests were richer. But what was it worth concerning the state? Not much...

Any plans on implementing ancient Iran? v.2.0

I think you've got to wait for the huge Mediterranean map which is, according to thamis, 50% ready. And I think it could come in 2.0. Or not, then you'll have to wait. Persia is already there but there is no place for it in this map.

 

[thamis]

Testing the small version of the scenario/map i have a strange "52 turns left" in 590 BC. It might be possible it appeared 48 turns ago, cannot tell since i was at war i was not really looking right upper part ;p

I guess it comes from me, if someone could help.

[edit : reloaded 1090 bc = 119 turns left, monarch marathon speed]

Same thing with large map : 100 turn left in 90 BC, same monarch/marathon

Maybe you accidentally had a turn limit option switched on?

 

[Broken Hawk]

Now the weather is too good for this

I hear ya!

 

[thamis]

Archers need more city str boost.
Spearmen already stronger than archers...why more city defense boost?

Unlike in vanilla CIV4, Archers aren't supposed to be great city defenders. We know that we still have to tell the AI that, but that'll come soon.

Do the Archer and Skirmisher bonuses work in defense mode also?

Yes.

Finally, shrines, and other commercial buildings and others...

Did I miss the discussion, concerning how "imballancing" these were before???

No, there was a discussion. Shrines don't even give any gold anymore. Not very imbalancing. No commercial building gives more than +20%. There is much less gold and commerce in TAM than in the vanilla game.

 

[thamis]

Update on the huge map:
I've completed terrain, rivers, and boni. Now I have to place the CIVs, and I'm experiencing a problem that the whole map is revealed, which I'm sure I can fix though.

Map 80% done.

 

[Jet]

A bit of feedback:

I played on the small map as Mycenae (Prince level) this time. First please look at the area between Sicily and Sardegna. There grows a wood at the ocean.

The AI seemed to be generally annoyed in my game. Some cautious but most were annoyed (Caesar was annoyed as well). The first war that occurred was against me. After I had built many wonders and had super cultured cities I was attacked by the Hittites. I let them come and blocked them with my Hoplites in the hills south of Byzanz. Thus they always approached with a armored spear and an amored javelineer to the cows were I destroyed them. Though they were too strong for mee to conquer. Their next city was well filled so that I just made peace after some time for their money.

Now that it is 1 AD I have to say that this war has been the only one. Though many have close border tensions no one is willing to go to war by himself

Cool, the invisible forest on that water tile is my mistake - thamis please note.

You saw annoyed AIs on the small map because I set the Aggressive AI option as the default for it. I thought it played better that way because of experiences like yours; too much peace makes me sad, too. Of course, you can change the options if you start the game with Custom Scenario instead of Play A Scenario.