The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

[Notarzt]

If it is possible to make a certain building automatically give certain promotions... now THAT would be cool. Has anyone looked into that?

The "Fall from Heaven" Mod has some of that buildings. That's where I have the idea from.

@leaderheads: I don't have a xml-editing program. But I will be able to provide you with appropriate .dds-files of all leaders. could be 1-2 days until i finish them.

 

[woodelf]

The "Fall from Heaven" Mod has some of that buildings. That's where I have the idea from.

@leaderheads: I don't have a xml-editing program. But I will be able to provide you with appropriate .dds-files of all leaders. could be 1-2 days until i finish them.

Google XML Marker. It's free and easy to use. Or you can use Wordpad, but it doesn't tell you when you've mismatched something.

 

[HolyOne]

What determins how much damage a catapult can do to fortifications? Because I noticed that high % can be destroyed easily even with rookie catapults at cca 30%/turn/catapult, while lower %fortifications, which are mainly cultural, can be lowered at cca 6/tun/catapult, even with elite ones.

Oh, and I also noticed a minor spelling error. There is Zoroastrism instead of ZoroastriANism in texts like "Zoroastrism has spread in somewhere" Just thought I mention it.

 

[Elhoim]

What determins how much damage a catapult can do to fortifications?

The bombard damage you see in catapults, for example %25, means how much of the total defense is going to take, not a raw percentage. Ex. if a city has %80 of defense, a catapult with %25 of bombard damage is going to substract %20 of defence, which is the %25 of %80...

I hope I explained it well...

Thamis, any Estimated Time of Release for the new version?

 

[Laurino]

Ok so...

@Path of the Mystics:

I activated the state religion thing, but for now, the civicInfo file doesnt allow me to give more gold for a building... Maybe Python will be the solution for that?

@Egyptian Poly:

Done.... Burial grounds now

@Lighthouse:

Masonry, as the Great Lighthouse.

@Leaderheads:

Good, but if you dont have Altova, just send me the images, I'll do the editing, it'll be way simpler that way.

@Praetorians:

Do you want them to stay Praetorians till the end, or upgrade them to Armored Infantry? Also, but I gotta verify with Thamis, I think that Praetorians won't be one of the Romans UU... I left all the ancient civs' UUs just to make the basic versions a bit more fun...

 

[Leptomeninges]

1. Bring back the Civ 3 TAM music! I don't know if there are copywright issues or the like, but if not, bring it back! I loved the music and it's an easy way to add some flavor to the mod right off.

2. Regarding resources providing exp rather than the ability to make specific units:

@Unit XP, Smities, etc:
The point with the high XP and the smithies is: We want to allow everybody to build all types of units, with or without resources. Just those people who have the resource build significantly stronger units. As I've given control to Laurino right now, I'm not quite sure about how things are. The idea is: no unit requires any resource, only techs. The smithies require the appropriate resources and techs. Thus, if you got no iron, you can build swordsmen, but they're weaker. If you got iron, you can build a smithy, which then makes ALL your units use better weapons (ie iron weapons). That's represented by the unit XP. If it is possible to make a certain building automatically give certain promotions... now THAT would be cool. Has anyone looked into that?

Here's the problem:
Because of the diminishing returns from progressive experience a "forged" quickly loses it's advantage over successive fights as compared with an "unforged" unit if the resource reward is only an initial experience bonus. I personally think this is a poor way to reward the struggle to control a rare resource. On the other hand, providing a free promotion (ie: iron forged weapon -- 30% attack bonus, copper gilded armor -- 20% defense bonus, light bronze greaves -- +1 first strike, steel breastplate -- +20% vs melee, etc.) to a unit when "forged" would provide a benefit that would not degrade over time. I personally think that is a much smarter solution. It is definitely possible as others have pointed out -- look at the Red Cross small wonder in vanilla civ 4.

May be interesting to look at Zuul's promotions mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142086

 

[Laurino]

For the smythies, we wood then have to add tin and steel to available metals?

 

[Pvblivs]

Steel? What for? What you mean is iron. The thing about steel is that it is actually very difficult to find how to make steel from iron.
What would be interesting ... Large Woods could offer a resource "wood" needed for an iron forge.

Tin would be indeed cool. And ... make tin rare as it was in ancient days. Yesterday I read an interesting article (from 1995 ) that told that a tin shortage caused the shift to the iron age. The fact that iron (steel) was superior to bronze was discovered later.

I would put 2 tin resources to Africa (into the desert) and 3 to Asia and the wood resources to europe.
In ancient days Cyprus was by far the most important copper trader. Interesting for trade decisions.

 

[onedreamer]

Publius... realism must necessary come after game balance, especially when we talk about strategic resources.

Here's the problem:
Because of the diminishing returns from progressive experience a "forged" quickly loses it's advantage over successive fights as compared with an "unforged" unit if the resource reward is only an initial experience bonus. I personally think this is a poor way to reward the struggle to control a rare resource. On the other hand, providing a free promotion (ie: iron forged weapon -- 30% attack bonus, copper gilded armor -- 20% defense bonus, light bronze greaves -- +1 first strike, steel breastplate -- +20% vs melee, etc.) to a unit when "forged" would provide a benefit that would not degrade over time. I personally think that is a much smarter solution. It is definitely possible as others have pointed out -- look at the Red Cross small wonder in vanilla civ 4.

May be interesting to look at Zuul's promotions mod:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=142086

Here's the real problem: that kind of promotions is the bane of balance. FFH is a very nice mod with very nice promotions, but they are too unbalancing especially vs the AI. Winning at Monarch in FFH by simply wiping out opponents is a joke while with vanilla Civ I have serious problems to achieve any victory, and I must be quite lucky to win...
The real deal is that the AI is not programmed to take advantage of promotions that have a different concept than the original game... and there is only so much that you can do with Python. Also the fact that Civ4 has Python and XML does not imply that mods should be so incredibly complicated and elaborated from a programming point of view. You can implement things that are simple to "script" but as much effective...
BTW... the Red Cross small wonder is a completely different thing from what you are proposing, from a balance point of view.
1- it does not require a strategic resource to be built.
2- it is not a building but a small wonder.
3- the free promotion it grants is not decisive in a battle.
When you introduce free promotions or xp bonuses you must be very careful of balance changes. All in all I think that tying this kind of bonuses to a strategic resource is a bad idea... unless you play a scenario where these resources are very common, but then again if they are the whole idea looses its sense. Also another point to take into consideration is the strategy and strategic choices. A 30% bonus to attack or to defense is not a choice... since such a bonus is way beyond decisive in a battle, building a smithy to get that bonus is not a choice but a must.
I'd rather point to production bonuses with buildings, and/or to promotions that are available only if you have a certain strategic resource (if that's possible to script), but they should be advanced promotions (like require 2 stars etc) and not free promotions.

 

[thamis]

@Smithies:
Ok, good idea about the fixed promotions. Let's do that. This leads to additional ideas.

- Leather Workshop (req. Hunting): Leather Armour, +10% defense vs melee
- Copper Smithy (req. Copper Working): Copper Weapons, +10% vs melee
- Bronze Smithy (req. Bronze Working): Bronze Armour, +10% defense
- Iron Smithy (req. Iron Working): Iron Weapons, +15% vs melee
- Steel Smithy (req. Steel): Steel Gear, +15% strength
- Shieldcrafter (req. Wood Working): Wooden Shield, +10% defense vs skirmishers, mounted skirmishers, medium infantry, heavy infantry

Copper should appear with Copper Working of course.

I think we can leave out tin and steel for now. Tin was used to make bronze (copper + tin = bronze). In TAM civ3 I had both copper and steel and bronze units would require both resources, which usually led to no bronze units being built. Bad idea.

@UUs
- Rome: Legionary (better Infantry, can build roads & fortresses), Praetorian (Heavy Spear w. city defense +50%)
- Egypt: War Chariot (better Chariot), Libyan Mercenary (Spear with 2 moves)
- Carthage: War Elephant (better War Elephant), Libyan Mercenary
- Iberia: Slinger (better Archer), Armoured Slinger (better Comp. Archer)
- Gallia: Gallic Swordsman (swordsman with 2 moves), Knight (Heavy Cav with defense bonus)
- Germanic: Woodsman (Axeman with forest bonus), Berserk (weaker than infantry, but with significant bonus vs melee)
- Babylon: Elite Archer (better Archer), Elite Comp. Archer (better Comp. Archer)
- Mycenae: Hoplite (better Spear), Triere (galley with +1 str, +1 move, +1 transport)
- Scythia: Fierce Horse Archer (faster horse archer), Fierce Heavy Horse Archer (faster...)
- Lydia: Medium Cavalry (stronger light cav), Hoplite (better spear)
- Phoenicia: Triere (see mycenae), Merchant (galley with no str, +3 transport)
- Getae: Falxman (Swordsman with +75% str in hills), Peltast (javelineer with 40% withdraw)
- Persia: Immortal (swordsman with +20% city attack), Medium Cavalry (see lydia)
- Medes: Wild Axeman (+15% str), ????????
- Britons: Marauding Swordsman (amphibious), Swift Chariot Archer (30% withdraw)
- Kolchis: Maraudig Swordsman (amph), War Chariot (see Egypt)
- Goths: Huskarl (armoured inf with +20% city defense), Knight (see Gallia)

How about that?

 

[BenGee171]

1.
I think you need Coal and Iron to make Steal.
Did you ever player Imperialism 2?
So you need Copper Tin and Coal to make Bronze!

Is there a way to do that?
Like 2 National Wonders a bronze-melt and a steal-melt (i hope it is the right word i use an translator from the german word Bronzeschmelze, Stahlschmelze) wich produce Bronze and Steal.

But is there a way to stop the produceing of the Building if you lose your Iron Coal or Tin Recourse?
I had the same Question with the iron forge what happens if you lose your iron recourse (sorry i didnt playd, maybe i will find it out later)

2.
Did you looked at "The Green Mod"??
There are Lemons
make them orange you got Oranges
maybee you can see more things if you look at his mod.

 

[HolyOne]

@UUs
- Rome: Legionary (better Infantry, can build roads & fortresses), Praetorian (Heavy Spear w. city defense +50%)
- Gallia: Gallic Swordsman (swordsman with 2 moves), Knight (Heavy Cav with defense bonus)
How about that?

Cavalry with defense is a bad idea. Especially as heavy cavalry, which is the strongest unit in the game. Defense bonus makes them an unbeatable uber-unit and that is bad for game balance. (see EE3 mod with the UU pack: Hussite war wagon replaced knights for Bohemia and had defense bonus. stack a few of them in a city and it won't fall in a while, not even for pikemen)

I think Rome should get Cataphract (heavy cav) as 2nd UU. It was important in late roman times. So while legionary is the unit of the expanding empire, cataphract is a unit for the defending empire. Not bad for game balance either.

 

[Pvblivs]

Hi,

I think you need Coal and Iron to make Steal.

you do not need coal. Actually in ancient times charcoal (for you: Holzkohle) has been used. Coal was discovered and used much later.

Did you ever player Imperialism 2?

I did. Actually too much But what has a game about colonies, railroad and factories, a game playing after the medievals to do with a game playing before the middle ages?
Of course for a railroad coal is better. I dare to see a Legionary building rails.

Pvblivs

 

[Notarzt]

Okay. 18 Leaderheads are ready. As i had difficulties with finding pictures of some leaders, some heads are from statues or coins. I replaced leaders I couldn't find anything about with other famous leaders of that empire.

Leaders (Empire) <change>

Agamemnon (Mycenaean E.) <>
Arminius (Germanic E.) <>
Caesar, Julius (Roman E.) <>
Cunobelin (Briton E.) <>
Dareios (Persian E.) <ruler was D?rayawua, didn't find that one on google/wiki)>
Decebal (Dacian E.) < was Getian E. - Decebal was ruler of Dacia, which would fit the starting position. Geta is south of Rome)>
Deiokes (Median E.) <>
Dido (Carthaginian E.) <>
Hammurabi (Babylonian E.) <>
Hatshepsut (Egyptian E.) <>
Hattusili (Hittite E.) <was Suppiluliumas - didn't find pictures of him)
Hiram (Phoenician E.) <>
Kroisos (Lydian Empire) <was Krisos - a typo?>
Mithradates (Parthian E.) <was Kolchean E. - that's the info wiki gave>
Partatua (Scythian E.) <>
Porsena, Lars (Etruscan E.) <>
Vercingetorix (Gallic E.) <>
Viriato (Iberian E.) <>

following a short thumbnail-overview of the 18 leaderheads




p.s.: i will redisign my archer-skins as i'm not completely happy with them. will be presented here soon.

 

[BenGee171]

I did. Actually too much But what has a game about colonies, railroad and factories, a game playing after the medievals to do with a game playing before the middle ages?
Of course for a railroad coal is better. I dare to see a Legionary building rails.Pvblivs

I just tought about the production ways of the game.
How you can use 2 recourses to build a new one.

Hey Notarzt:
It would be better if all Leaderheads had the same style.
And try to make the Archer Skin more different.
Maybee i will try to make my own skins. and maybe i will share them with you.

 

[Pvblivs]

Publius... realism must necessary come after game balance, especially when we talk about strategic resources.

I agree. Nevertheless reality as it "already happened" has some interesting offers for us:
- Not all starting positions should be equally powerful (offering different difficulties)
- In vanilla like somehow in reality resources are grouped. Like wheat does not grow at every place in the world. TAM should handle it equally. This enables the need for trading and makes alliances powerful. Tin is THE example as tin was short some times in history. Iron came up because it was available (one of the most common elements on earth).
- Civilizations grow or fall in periods. This we can reflect with UUs. Rome has a very modern UU while Egypt or Babylon are having very old ones. If Egypt is not growing too powerful in the beginning it should be hard to win the game.

Here's the real problem: that kind of promotions is the bane of balance. FFH is a very nice mod with very nice promotions, but they are too unbalancing especially vs the AI. Winning at Monarch in FFH by simply wiping out opponents is a joke while with vanilla Civ I have serious problems to achieve any victory, and I must be quite lucky to win...

You somehow HAVE to tell the AI how to use it or provide it with more bonusses. I don't like to win because the other one does not know "my new rules". If we have advantages from resources, and we should have them, the AI should be enabled to know how to use it.
How does the AI know how to use Factories and plants? This way we could do it... A smithy should be handled as a plant. Read more below.

I'd rather point to production bonuses with buildings, and/or to promotions that are available only if you have a certain strategic resource (if that's possible to script), but they should be advanced promotions (like require 2 stars etc) and not free promotions.

The main problem about this whole smithy thing (in defense as in offense) is: It's too much! We put them all together and receive 6 free promotions. I don't like being promoted that much for nothing. Though I understand that we have to give benefits for an available resource.

How about this?

We have classes of "power plants". Like stables, workshops, armories and smithies.

A stable (with horses) gives you better horses and thus a bonus (like +10% retreat).

A workshop (with forest in city radius) gives you a free artillery bonus (like +10% bombard) and a bonus to the city wall (+20%).

Armories are available with leather (hunting (and forests in city radius?)), bronze (copper (and tin?)) or iron (iron (and forests?)) providing armor for melee units with:
leather (+5% defense), bronze (+10% defense), iron (+10% defense, +20% collateral damage protection).
Only the strongest armory (with available resource) built is working.

Smithies are available with wood (wood working (and forests?)), bronze (copper (and tin?)) or iron (iron (and forests?)) providing stronger weapons for melee, cavalry and archers with:
wood (+5% offense), bronze (+10% offense), iron (+10% offense, +15% against melee)
Only the stronges smithy (with available resource) built is working.

I am against a production bonus. Why? You can always choose between more and better. And in a game I'd rather take better because managing better is easier than simply more.

I even would consider the buildings stonecutter and lumberjack. With available resource (wood in radius or stone as resource) they could improve the strength of a wall (+10% wood, +20% stone).

Those buildings should be overall some kind of expensive. They should force a decision between maybe 5 swordsmen OR an iron forge. They're really powerful, so it should hurt you really to build them.

Maybe over the traits we could lower those costs. Aggressive:Smithy, Industrious: workshop etc.

 

[Pvblivs]

I just tought about the production ways of the game.
How you can use 2 recourses to build a new one.

I would not do this. The entire game does not know the concept of production chains. Neither does the AI. It would be a brand new concept. But what would it be good for?

 

[Warmaker]

@Smithies:

@UUs
- Rome: Legionary (better Infantry, can build roads & fortresses), Praetorian (Heavy Spear w. city defense +50%)
- Egypt: War Chariot (better Chariot), Libyan Mercenary (Spear with 2 moves)
- Carthage: War Elephant (better War Elephant), Libyan Mercenary
- Iberia: Slinger (better Archer), Armoured Slinger (better Comp. Archer)
- Gallia: Gallic Swordsman (swordsman with 2 moves), Knight (Heavy Cav with defense bonus)
- Germanic: Woodsman (Axeman with forest bonus), Berserk (weaker than infantry, but with significant bonus vs melee)
- Babylon: Elite Archer (better Archer), Elite Comp. Archer (better Comp. Archer)
- Mycenae: Hoplite (better Spear), Triere (galley with +1 str, +1 move, +1 transport)
- Scythia: Fierce Horse Archer (faster horse archer), Fierce Heavy Horse Archer (faster...)
- Lydia: Medium Cavalry (stronger light cav), Hoplite (better spear)
- Phoenicia: Triere (see mycenae), Merchant (galley with no str, +3 transport)
- Getae: Falxman (Swordsman with +75% str in hills), Peltast (javelineer with 40% withdraw)
- Persia: Immortal (swordsman with +20% city attack), Medium Cavalry (see lydia)
- Medes: Wild Axeman (+15% str), ????????
- Britons: Marauding Swordsman (amphibious), Swift Chariot Archer (30% withdraw)
- Kolchis: Maraudig Swordsman (amph), War Chariot (see Egypt)
- Goths: Huskarl (armoured inf with +20% city defense), Knight (see Gallia)

How about that?

My comments regarding the Romans and unique units for them.

I strongly recommend maintaining an infantry-centric army for the Romans. It goes a long way with the theme of the Roman Legions of the Republic and up to the High Empire. The Legionairre was always the backbone of the Roman Army in these highly familiar eras. Kataphractoi, Hvy Horse Archers, etc. were the specialty of the Eastern Roman Empire / Byzantine Empire. The Western Roman Empire never fully switched to that system of warfare and be "Roman" (the late Empire was actually mostly composed of barbarians). I like the idea of making the Legionaries being able to build roads and fortifications, since quite a bit of the Roman Empire was built with their hands. Also, I would disagree with Praetorians as a unique unit, especially as a spear armed infantry unit. They fought like normal Legionairres.

The Romans did make good use of Auxiliary units from allied / client states / Roman provinces. Cavalry, spearmen, archers, etc. To represent this, the usage of the normal units is acceptable.

There is one other aspect of warfare the Romans truly excelled at, more than any other people until hundreds of years later. Siege warfare. Ballistas, Onagers, Scorpions, undermining of walls, siege towers, assault ramps... you name it. To represent the Roman superiority in siege warefare, may I suggest this?
- An inherent City Attack bonus to Roman Legionary units.
- Their 2nd unique could be "Roman Siegeworks" or "Roman Siege Equipment." This could be a generalization of all the fancy equipment and techniques the Romans used for assaulting fortifications and cities. For speed and efficiency's sake, you can still use the regular catapult graphics, but it would look cool to have a Siege Tower graphic to set it apart from the normal "catapult" units.
--- This unique unit should have inherent or higher than normal City Attack, Bombard, and Collateral Damage abilities.

Solid Legionary infantry and excellent siege equipment, IMO, are great representations of the Roman Army of the eras that most are familiar with.

 

[Notarzt]

Hey Notarzt:
It would be better if all Leaderheads had the same style.

Yes, you're right. Probably when i have enough time (about 2 months) i will draw and scan 18 heads based on the pictures. You wont be able to find 18 same-style-pics on the internet. But i'm thinking about that. And for the beginning, this different style-pics are better than 10 sids.

And try to make the Archer Skin more different.
Maybee i will try to make my own skins. and maybe i will share them with you.

I'm working on that at the moment. Skinning the basic archer for about 4 hours now, and not yet half the way through. See my last archer-posting for what it is: my very fist try of skinning. Got a better concept now. The units look better.

 

[woodelf]

I like the LHs Notartz. The stills from the net work well in EE3 so I think they'd work well here too, much better than the cartoonish Vanilla ones IMO.