The barbarians are too strong!

[Iceciro]

I see a lot of cases where the pillage functions of the stacks just murders the AI. I think it'd be interesting to run a game with the barbs we have now doing the pillage/smash into city walls hybrid, and then the same game, same map, with barbs that just throw themselves into cities. AIs are really bad at stopping pillaging armies in my experience.

 

[xienwolf]

We're trying to think of good ways to train the AI to be proactive about defense, which would mean maintaining a foce capable of stopping pillagers, and actively seeking to do so. It's just a bit tricky to figure out where to place it in the code and how to set it up to work nicely with all the other pieces.

 

[Gedwyn]

Part of the problem with AI defence could be due to the way the barbs pop now...it used to be in shaded/covered tiles of the map where they could only pop. Now they seem to be popping where ever they can.

I had 5 wolf riders pop on an uncovered tile right next to one of my borders today...I put guards out - fairly significant amount of guards on my borders - but that's just a tad ridiculous. (I'd really like to see that changed...groups of barbs shouldn't be popping in 'broad daylight')

The AI civs never seem to put out border guards at all...and they would need to put them out in fairly significant numbers to stop the 4 lizardmen or 5 wolf rider pops that happen right next to them. But at least with early detection on your borders you have a couple rounds to react before they get deep into your territory.

Then again, the AI civs never seem to upgrade their land at all with tile improvements - not significantly at least - so why bother defending the outer edges anyways?

 

[Valkrionn]

I had 5 wolf riders pop on an uncovered tile right next to one of my borders today...I put guards out - fairly significant amount of guards on my borders - but that's just a tad ridiculous. (I'd really like to see that changed...groups of barbs shouldn't be popping in 'broad daylight')

I would agree, if not for the fact that preventing them from spawning in visible terrain can 'civilize' huge tracks of land with just a single hawk. If there was a happy median I'd be all for it.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I had 5 wolf riders pop on an uncovered tile right next to one of my borders today...I put guards out - fairly significant amount of guards on my borders - but that's just a tad ridiculous. (I'd really like to see that changed...groups of barbs shouldn't be popping in 'broad daylight')

I do not see why this would be "ridiculous"? In fact, I think it is pretty cool. Makes you guard those workers even if you think there is noone around. Erebus is a dangerous place at these times. Barbarians pop virtually everywhere! This is what the mechanic reflects, and it does it extremely well IMO.

 

[Jhoniten]

Well they could change the code from allowing barbs to spawn outside your borders to spawning inside them, wouldn't that be fun? Think of them as disgruntled citizens you have to put down every now and then.

 

[xienwolf]

Popping up in the middle of a large area of exposed land would be somewhat disconcerting, but what is the difference between them spawning in a tile you can just barely see (within 2 tiles of non-visible land) and them walking out of the non-visible land that turn?

 

[Gedwyn]

Technically there is no difference...but from a purely aesthetic p.o.v...shouldn't barbs be popping in 'wilderness' areas?

Is the tile that is right next to a border and is uncovered considered to be wild? I don't think so...but just an opinion.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Aesthetic purposes? This is interesting as a concept. I do not think it is "ugly" for barbarians to pop-up in a visible square outside your borders. Prevents you from using the game's mechanics to cheat.
The initial notion of "non visible squares outside your territory" didn't mean, "just spam some hawks and some floating eyes, and you get rid of the barbs for the whole game", it meant, "the barbarians will spawn outside your cultural borders, so you can see them coming".

What FF has done is to stay true to the purpose. Barbs spawn outside your territory, and you cannot prevent it exploting the mechanic. You have to deal with them.

As for "wilderness areas". Don't tell me that you consider that new settlement at the borders of your empire an "urbanized" area...It is still wilderness. Everything outside any cultural borders is "wilderness". One square is not an area 100x100 square meters. It is a quite big area.

 

[xienwolf]

Main reason for the change was that we allow the Barbarians to spawn inside Barbarian Friendly tiles (ie - Clan territory). The check for "is the tile visible" obviously fails for any owned tile, so had to be circumvented.

 

[Breez]

I had ONE square that I was having a hard time getting my culture to on my continent.

In 20 turns I had 4 groups (3 -5 units per group) spawn on that one square. I had to detail a small SoD out to placate the area. While on one hand it kinda sucked... It WAS interesting.

 

[xienwolf]

That was the only unowned tile in your entire continent? I'd have to run through the math to verify, but I am pretty sure with only a single unowned tile the spawning should shut off due to the required number of Barbarians for the area going to 0.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

couldn't you just place a lone warrior on that tile? that should work

 

[Breez]

There were Barb Allied civs on my continent, and there were some out lying islands that were not settled and didn't have culture extended to them. But yes, If I remeber right I took The Barb Dragon City late in the game and had to grow its culture out. Before that last spot I had about 5 uncultured spots, but I got 4 of them filled in pretty quick. I was running 80% culture JUST to fill in those last spots. I don't mind the barbs coming from other culture, at least then they had to go thru my front lines. This was back in the rear areas so it was annoying.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Isn't this functionality great? Do you know how many real civilizations had this kind of problem? China had to build the great wall to protect itself from "barbarians comming through the rears"

I enjoy this stuff in my games, even if it means I am being anihiliated. It gives me something to try better next time.
If you are losing is your fault, not the game's fault .
Of course I am not refering to your case, just in mine

 

[Breez]

Oh it wasn't a problem, I just felt silly using 2 berserkers, a phalanx, a longbowmen, and a Champion to defend against forstling goblin hordes and stampedes of wolf riders.

 

[Gedwyn]

Aesthetic purposes? This is interesting as a concept. I do not think it is "ugly" for barbarians to pop-up in a visible square outside your borders. Prevents you from using the game's mechanics to cheat.
The initial notion of "non visible squares outside your territory" didn't mean, "just spam some hawks and some floating eyes, and you get rid of the barbs for the whole game", it meant, "the barbarians will spawn outside your cultural borders, so you can see them coming".

What FF has done is to stay true to the purpose. Barbs spawn outside your territory, and you cannot prevent it exploting the mechanic. You have to deal with them.

As for "wilderness areas". Don't tell me that you consider that new settlement at the borders of your empire an "urbanized" area...It is still wilderness. Everything outside any cultural borders is "wilderness". One square is not an area 100x100 square meters. It is a quite big area.

Spamming hawks and eyes sounds like an incredibly boring and time consuming way of micromanagement...and a huge waste of my precious gaming time. I guess people will do that however

As for wilderness...while I wouldn't consider those border areas urban, I would consider them to be...conquered is probably a good word. Meaning civilization is encroaching into that area, workers are working, trade is commencing on the roads, there are patrols of swordsman, hunters etc around to protect the weak...it may still be wilderness, but it's less wild than the areas outside my borders

Again, while there is technically no difference, I much prefer the barbs coming out of the darkness just for the feel it gives to the game. It's a: 'Oh no the savages are coming from the depths of the forest' as opposed to the 'hrm, 6 wolf riders just magically popped on that hill over there'.

 

[Breez]

It's a: 'Oh no the savages are coming from the depths of the forest' as opposed to the 'hrm, 6 wolf riders just magically popped on that hill over there'.

I tend to try and look at it differently, wow those 6 wolf riders did a darn fine job of sneaking in close before being discovered...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I tend to try and look at it differently, wow those 6 wolf riders did a darn fine job of sneaking in close before being discovered...

Exactly my point of view, also.

 

[zup]

I usually do not use units to guard my workers, so I might lose them if a fast unit spawns near my border. But that's rare and if I have more than one worker in a single tile, that's by chance or theres some specific resource in that tile I need yesterday. It is not a big deal. However, I wish there was some sort of a check before the workers carry on with their orders. I have many a time seen a case my worker finished a road the previous turn then moves to the next on the path and starts building a road. Right next to a barbarian warrior no less. A warrior I could see move/spawn there between my turns. Especially in the early game, I might not have a single unit waiting for orders, so the worker goes on with his orders immediately, giving me no chance to stop him. Having no movement left after starting the road, it is a most likely a goner (I *might* have a strong unit nearby). And in the early game, it really hurts to lose a worker. They seem to be afraid of lizardmen guarding lairs on the other side of a mountain range and out of sight. Could they check both the tile they are standing on and the one they want to move to for safety? Even if it was limited to enemies I can see?