The barbarians are too strong!

[Sarisin]

What's your AC at would be the main question with Demons. More of them spawn at higher AC levels, and they get bonus starting XP based on the current AC as well.

Demons are meant to finally provide a good reason to want the AC maintained, at least until you can make peace with them for yourself.

The AC is in the mid-50s. I wouldn't call that a higher level.

I see what you are saying, but I still think Manticores with 3 promotions this early in the game (I just started getting Tier III troops) is a bit much.

Then, there is the matter of why the AI is pumping out barb Manticores, but I cannot get one despite researching the required tech?

I did notice that the creatures coming out of the Planar Gates for me (mostly Chao Marauders, Revelers, and Succubi) have 3 promotions too.

 

[Sarisin]

The obvious question would be "why are you fighting the demons as the Sheaim?"

Adopting Ashen Veil is all the Sheaim should require to gain peace with the Demons. So long as you follow that religion, the demons are effectively your allies against the other civs...

Then, there is the matter of the 'other' barbs - plenty of Undead, Orcs, etc.

Really, I got a good game going with FOL as my religion. Svartalfar beat me to AV. I have Kithra. Hyborem declared war on me almost as soon as he entered the game.

I see your point about trying to get AV as your religion with the Sheaim, but some games other religions work out sooner and better. In this case, though, you are right about a demon alliance making things easier.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd like to suggest something.

It's not that the barbarians in general, are too strong.
FROSTLINGS ARE TOO STRONG!

Playing a game with patch J now, the Ljosalfar Dictatorship just became the Ljosalfar Tribe. I looked over, and their second city just got eaten by frostlings. Only two of them.

Why are frostlings Str4 in FF? They were only str3 in FFH. That change makes them about the most powerful early barbarians.

Also, there's a demonic lich summoning multiple wraiths at once, about 10 squares south of my capital (on turn 59). I posted that in the bug thread, because I'm sure we had this conversation before, and you made sure that sort of thing wouldn't happen again

And this is just after I finished fighting off a named Lizardman. thankfully, he only had Combat II, and I was lucky enough to have a mutated Centeni with Hardy I

Did you make any changes to barbarians in the last two patches, or am I just getting bad luck here?

 

[Sarisin]

I read through this thread again.

I can't believe that others are not seeing barbs spawn within their borders.

For example, every turn I have one or more barb Drowns spawn on a water tile inside my borders. He moves one tile and automatically pillages something. I have no units that can go get him on these water one tiles.

The other thing I have notices is the option to "Show Enemy Moves" is almost useless with this method of barb spawning. You never get to see all of the barbs that spawn, especially those within your borders, or just on your border. Also, you don't hear the audio cue that bad guys are around even though they are sitting right next to your capital.

If you have a large empire, you have to be very diligent now about the barbs appearing. You can look for the red dots on the mini-map, I find that helps a bit.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I read through this thread again.

I can't believe that others are not seeing barbs spawn within their borders.

For example, every turn I have one or more barb Drowns spawn on a water tile inside my borders. He moves one tile and automatically pillages something. I have no units that can go get him on these water one tiles.

The other thing I have notices is the option to "Show Enemy Moves" is almost useless with this method of barb spawning. You never get to see all of the barbs that spawn, especially those within your borders, or just on your border. Also, you don't hear the audio cue that bad guys are around even though they are sitting right next to your capital.

If you have a large empire, you have to be very diligent now about the barbs appearing. You can look for the red dots on the mini-map, I find that helps a bit.

You can click on the helmet button bellow the scores display to have all enemy military within your territory be spotted the way the "show resources" button works. I find this very helpful when I have a large empire.
Also, if you zoom out first, and then press this button, you are presented with a lot of useful options, like "show enemy military" which shows all enemy military in sight of your troops. You then, zoom in, and the indication remain.

 

[Sarisin]

You can click on the helmet button bellow the scores display to have all enemy military within your territory be spotted the way the "show resources" button works. I find this very helpful when I have a large empire.
Also, if you zoom out first, and then press this button, you are presented with a lot of useful options, like "show enemy military" which shows all enemy military in sight of your troops. You then, zoom in, and the indication remain.

Thank you for this tip, Thunder, I will try it.

I also have tracked down the instructions on the MAFs you gave and entered the command line to make the change. I will give up on this Sheaim game I am playing and try another Huge map game to see how it works.

Thanks again!

 

[Sarisin]

I'd like to suggest something.

It's not that the barbarians in general, are too strong.
FROSTLINGS ARE TOO STRONG!

Playing a game with patch J now, the Ljosalfar Dictatorship just became the Ljosalfar Tribe. I looked over, and their second city just got eaten by frostlings. Only two of them.

Why are frostlings Str4 in FF? They were only str3 in FFH. That change makes them about the most powerful early barbarians.


Did you make any changes to barbarians in the last two patches, or am I just getting bad luck here?

I agree with your comments on the Frostling barbs which seem to have taken over the land as the most popular bad guys in the early going now. Also, don't forget they get bonuses on tundra and ice and always seem to move on those tiles as much as they can. When they come in numbers, as they usually do, they present quite a challenge.

One other thing that I have noticed is that the AI will often spawn a barb group right next to any unit you have healing out in the wilderness and likely kill him immediately. That is definitely a dirty trick! I used to like to keep captured Giant Spiders outside my borders to prevent barb cities from popping up and as early warning, but now the ^%$#@! AI loves to spawn Lizardman groups right next to the Spiders.

 

[Iceciro]

I will say, Sarsin, I have never had Barb AIs spawn directly inside my borders (unless playing a barbarian civ, in which case they shouldn't attack you.)
Sometimes you will get move 2 barbarians coming deep inside your borders but that's different. AFAIK they can't spawn inside your cultural borders UNLESS they come out of a lair.

 

[Vehem]

I'd like to suggest something.

It's not that the barbarians in general, are too strong.
FROSTLINGS ARE TOO STRONG!

...

Why are frostlings Str4 in FF? They were only str3 in FFH. That change makes them about the most powerful early barbarians.

Yup - we had Frostlings pre-Samhaim (when it was an Ice I summon) and we used the Age of Ice stats, but made them Strength 2 with 1 cold damage. Post-Ice (where FfH introduced Frostlings), they have the Racial Promotion of "Frostling" too, which also grants 1 cold damage.

I've removed it from the Unit now - it should only get it from the racial promotion.

===

Also - you mentioned the Ljosalfar getting hurt by them... Elves have a 25% weakness to the +2 Cold damage that the Frostlings had, so it was hitting them particularly hard.

 

[xienwolf]

I read through this thread again.

I can't believe that others are not seeing barbs spawn within their borders.

For example, every turn I have one or more barb Drowns spawn on a water tile inside my borders. He moves one tile and automatically pillages something. I have no units that can go get him on these water one tiles.

The other thing I have notices is the option to "Show Enemy Moves" is almost useless with this method of barb spawning. You never get to see all of the barbs that spawn, especially those within your borders, or just on your border. Also, you don't hear the audio cue that bad guys are around even though they are sitting right next to your capital.

If you have a large empire, you have to be very diligent now about the barbs appearing. You can look for the red dots on the mini-map, I find that helps a bit.

The barbarians spawning in your borders are the demons. Demons don't care about borders at all, they only care about Hell Terrain. If the plot is Hell, they will spawn there.

You can click on the helmet button bellow the scores display to have all enemy military within your territory be spotted the way the "show resources" button works. I find this very helpful when I have a large empire.
Also, if you zoom out first, and then press this button, you are presented with a lot of useful options, like "show enemy military" which shows all enemy military in sight of your troops. You then, zoom in, and the indication remain.

Do you find that this is working for Demon and Animal units? So far it does not work for me with regard to those 2 factions, and I have been trying to figure out a way to make it work, so far without much luck.

 

[Vehem]

Then, there is the matter of the 'other' barbs - plenty of Undead, Orcs, etc.

Really, I got a good game going with FOL as my religion. Svartalfar beat me to AV. I have Kithra. Hyborem declared war on me almost as soon as he entered the game.

I see your point about trying to get AV as your religion with the Sheaim, but some games other religions work out sooner and better. In this case, though, you are right about a demon alliance making things easier.

The barbarians spawning in your borders are the demons. Demons don't care about borders at all, they only care about Hell Terrain. If the plot is Hell, they will spawn there.

As Xienwolf said - Demons are the only ones that will ignore borders (the other two Barbarian types need the friendly/neutral space). In the past playing Sheaim and raising the AC didn't *require* you to be Ashen Veil, but now I'd suggest that it's fairly suicidal not to.

Neutral civs are also hit fairly hard if they remain neutral during an Armageddon-War (high AC, lots of hell terrain spread) unless they have a good sanctifying policy. It's easier however to pick a side (either AV or one of the good religions) and take part in that war. Joining the bad-guys will cost anyone other than the Sheaim/Infernals a city via Pax Diabolis, but may be worth it in the long run.

====

Not all games become "Armageddon Games", but those that do are definitely different to the others. If you've been playing the Sheaim/raising the AC to get the Planar Gate creatures, but aren't supporting the evil side through AV worship, then Agares *will* come to get you. Big time.

 

[Sarisin]

As Xienwolf said - Demons are the only ones that will ignore borders (the other two Barbarian types need the friendly/neutral space). In the past playing Sheaim and raising the AC didn't *require* you to be Ashen Veil, but now I'd suggest that it's fairly suicidal not to.

Neutral civs are also hit fairly hard if they remain neutral during an Armageddon-War (high AC, lots of hell terrain spread) unless they have a good sanctifying policy. It's easier however to pick a side (either AV or one of the good religions) and take part in that war. Joining the bad-guys will cost anyone other than the Sheaim/Infernals a city via Pax Diabolis, but may be worth it in the long run.

====

Not all games become "Armageddon Games", but those that do are definitely different to the others. If you've been playing the Sheaim/raising the AC to get the Planar Gate creatures, but aren't supporting the evil side through AV worship, then Agares *will* come to get you. Big time.

Thanks for the advice from you and xienwolf.

As I said in a prior post, the main culprits that were spawning inside my borders were DROWNS on water tiles. I'm not sure, but aren't they Undead barbs and not Demon? There were plenty of Pyre Zombie barbs in the game, and I don't recall for sure, but I think they were not Demons as well. They were not spawning inside my borders, only the Drowns.

Also, I tried using the button to help identify bad guys in my territory and it wasn't working. If you were playing Calibim or another 'red' civ, you would really have problems with that anyway.

Again, thanks for the responses, especially the strategy on alignments in the game now.

 

[Sarisin]

The barbarians spawning in your borders are the demons. Demons don't care about borders at all, they only care about Hell Terrain. If the plot is Hell, they will spawn there.



Do you find that this is working for Demon and Animal units? So far it does not work for me with regard to those 2 factions, and I have been trying to figure out a way to make it work, so far without much luck.

Yeah, I guess we get back to my other thread now on using the No Hell Terrain option, which I did.

Again, the only barbs spawning inside my borders were DROWNS on water tiles, which I guess could be hell terrain too, but I thought they were Undead, not Demon.

The Manticores seemed like they were spawning inside my borders with Flying and 4 movement pts.

 

[Valkrionn]

As far as I'm aware, all undead units are under Demon control.

 

[Iceciro]

If it isn't an orc or an animal, it's Demonspawn.

 

[Sarisin]

If it isn't an orc or an animal, it's Demonspawn.

OK, got it. It makes sense as I also saw a few barb human units too like Swordsmen and Adepts.

Then, why only Drowns on water tiles and not Imps, Pyre Zombies, Fire Elementals, etc. on other hell terrain?

I had beaucoup Demon barbs to deal with, but only the Drowns spawned in my territory on water tiles. I got one just about every turn.

 

[xienwolf]

Possibly that was the only hell in your terrain which didn't already have a unit on it. It chooses a tile at random, so could just as easily never spawn one anywhere near you as spawn every single one right next to your capital.

 

[Sarisin]

Possibly that was the only hell in your terrain which didn't already have a unit on it. It chooses a tile at random, so could just as easily never spawn one anywhere near you as spawn every single one right next to your capital.

Well, I didn't have any units that could go on water tiles, but...

I'm sure I had plenty of other tiles with hell terrain (hard to tell as it was invisible ) that didn't have units on them. I'm thinking of all the resource tiles that were changed and Ancient Forests wiped out. Those must have been hell terrain and no units on them.

It's just strange only the Drown, and only on water tiles, which, by the way, were quite a distance away from the other hell terrain in my civ.

 

[zup]

If the Sheaim went good, they could raise AC without fear of hell terrain and still reap the benefits of high ac planar gates.

 

[Sarisin]

If the Sheaim went good, they could raise AC without fear of hell terrain and still reap the benefits of high ac planar gates.

That's a good point, zup, but they still would have to deal with the demons spawning just outside their territory. The Manticores are really killers when they spawn and fly in 4 tiles. How do you deal with them? I was just getting Rangers and even my two heroes (Kithra and the Baron) had very low combat odds against them. I don't think they have a particular counter like melee, mounted, archery units, etc.