The barbarians are too strong!

[Thunder_Gr]

I do not qeue orders, so I have never had this problem. In fact, I find it a bit annoying that my workers stop working when there is an enemy unit within spotting range...Whether guarded or not.
One more thing I find anoying is that the "Sentry" and "Fortify" commands do the same thing. Fortified units enter the unit cycle when an enemy appears within visibility range... Obviously, If I wanted that, I would have chosen to "sentry" them instead of fortifying them.

These are personal preferences, of course, I do not say there is a need to change anything. Just pointing out the level of "barbarian awarness" FF has in respect to the issue zup reported.

 

[xienwolf]

We're working on making workers move in a less suicidal manner. AI is horrible about doing those kind of things right now, but abit better than previously (we've managed to get them to stay in a city if they can't come out safely. But once out they are lemmings when they move)

Thuder: Fortify units wake up when enmies are near? Shouldn't happen, so could use a save to debug that one. Only sentry and HEALING units should wake when an enemy is nearby, and for healing units only if they are the best defender for the stack. (the healing bit we added, but fortify should be unchanged)

 

[Valkrionn]

If it helps, I only get the Fortified unit waking if it happens to be the strongest defender on the tile.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Indeed, this should be the case. Since I usually put a couple of units in guard duty, I get those fortified to wake up, and those single units on hills, fortified, guarding my mines, wake up also...A single unit is always the best defender on a tile .
Thanks to Valkrionn it shouldn't be too difficult to pin the issue now!

 

[civ_king]

OMFG I just had a 20 Frostling wolf rider stack spawn INSIDE my border NEXT TO MY CAPITAL, sorry for the caps but it is quite disturbing, I had lots of sentries for detection, but the decide to spawn in my damn borders 'quickly gets sedated by a guard' grr...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

OMFG I just had a 20 Frostling wolf rider stack spawn INSIDE my border NEXT TO MY CAPITAL, sorry for the caps but it is quite disturbing, I had lots of sentries for detection, but the decide to spawn in my damn borders 'quickly gets sedated by a guard' grr...

A save game and more information would have certainly helped more

 

[Guybrush!]

Iv'e once had large amount of barbarians spawning in a mine in my borders. Something like 20 goblins. Really gave me the impression 'Miners aren't really looking where they are tunneling.' Accursed underground goblin clans! Fortunately, I had an army marching right next to it......tasty, tasty free exp.

 

[Dragonlord]

Stacks of 20? Spawning inside your borders? Never seen anything like that! I've had many, many stacks of 5 or so, always spawning outside my borders, sometimes quite rapidly... no sooner have I killed one stack than the next spawns, keeps me on my toes!

I think the barbarian model is quite good as it is now. Haven't seen a lot of AI civs killed by barbs, either.
I play on Immortal mostly, BTW, patch J.

 

[zup]

The AI does suffer from the barbarian stacks but I have not seen them die off. However, the barbarian stacks just might make a difference between a challenging and a steamrolling game. Especially if you use Baron, lots of werewolf food.

 

[Breez]

OMFG I just had a 20 Frostling wolf rider stack spawn INSIDE my border NEXT TO MY CAPITAL, sorry for the caps but it is quite disturbing, I had lots of sentries for detection, but the decide to spawn in my damn borders 'quickly gets sedated by a guard' grr...

What race were you at the time? Were you allied with anyone?

I guess what I am getting at is... is there ANY chance you were at pece with teh savages?

 

[Iceciro]

The AI doesn't die off to the stacks, but they're not prepared for the pillaging stacks.

 

[deadliver]

Love how the topic went from "I wet my pants for the AI for barbs" (as usual btw) to the same old song...

Leave raging barbarians off if err, you don't like raging barbarians. At least do us the courtesy of leaving this in the main forum, please stop trying to infect a cool mod with your...well whatever that is.

Having crazy out of control barbarians is awesome, for some fun try giving Acheron mobility near the beginning of the game...or actually WB Orcus enough promotions so he CAN actually capture cities. Repeatedly I see people complaining that the AI dies too quick, I simply do not think this is the case unless there is an extreme and unlucky circumstance such as when people used to spawn next to Barbatos or the Dirge unloaded some love turn 10.

Please, please, PLEASE do not translate your bad luck in a few of your games into barbarian nerfing.

 

[Iceciro]

Deadliver, I don't know what your issue is, but I like the raging barbs too. Firstly, this thread isn't about people who have raging barbarians on and are complaining - if raging barbs did more than add some stacks it'd be different. I can eat any of the barbs who come into my house for lunch, including Orthus. But the AI can't, and they're supposed to be my real opponents, whereas the barbs are supposed to be a speedbump for both of us, not something that marches through and decimates the AI allowing me to coast to victory.

I don't want barbs nerfed, I want the AI to learn to deal with the things.

 

[deadliver]

Deadliver, I don't know what your issue is, but I like the raging barbs too. Firstly, this thread isn't about people who have raging barbarians on and are complaining - if raging barbs did more than add some stacks it'd be different. I can eat any of the barbs who come into my house for lunch, including Orthus. But the AI can't, and they're supposed to be my real opponents, whereas the barbs are supposed to be a speedbump for both of us, not something that marches through and decimates the AI allowing me to coast to victory.

I don't want barbs nerfed, I want the AI to learn to deal with the things.

I don't want barbs nerfed, I want the AI to learn to deal with the things. Same here!

Thought my issue was pretty clear, that this thread started to turn into a one. In all my games of FF i have yet to encounter a game where substantial numbers of AIs are wiped clean, allowing me to prance to victory.

Also this applies to FFH2 ever since they removed Barbatos.

 

[Vehem]

OMFG I just had a 20 Frostling wolf rider stack spawn INSIDE my border NEXT TO MY CAPITAL, sorry for the caps but it is quite disturbing, I had lots of sentries for detection, but the decide to spawn in my damn borders 'quickly gets sedated by a guard' grr...

If I recall correctly stacks are from 1-6 and can only spawn in barb-friendly or neutral lands. The only way to get what you're describing is to have a number of stacks (at least 4) spawn nearby and then have them all converge on your capital the turn after.

 

[deadliver]

Luckily guys running the mods/mod mods can pick up on the exaggeration.

 

[Vehem]

Luckily guys running the mods/mod mods can pick up on the exaggeration.

I did kinda get that he either wasn't being serious with it or was exaggerating to make some sort of point - but the comments still aren't that helpful when it's obvious that some of the people reading aren't going to follow the thinking. Given that I couldn't be 100% sure that he was joking (even knowing that it wasn't possible for what was described to happen from the code) I figured a generic explanation was probably best rather than a "don't be silly".

A newcomer to the boards may simply see it and think "20 wolfriders! That's crazy! I'm not playing that!". If there's a genuine issue, then it should definitely be posted - but the half-joking or sarcastic reports are just going to confuse people.

====

Regarding Barbarian strength in general - we're currently pretty happy with the amount of pressure they put on human players, so they're unlikely to be toned down in that respect. We do however want the AI to be smarter about dealing with them, so that's where the attention is being directed. As a knock-on, they'll be a little smarter about dealing with *your* stacks in their territory too.

 

[Sarisin]

There is one problem I have noticed with barb demons in my game playing as the Sheaim.

Around Turn 400 of an epic speed game, the AI has started spamming Manticores. These are very tough units to deal with due to their strength (especially this early in the game) and their flying/pillage ability. While there fortunately have not been any Manticore stacks, whenever I kill one (this usually takes at least 3 of my units) another spawns just outside my borders and flies in.

Yes, as the Sheaim I DID research the tech that allows me to get Manticores through the Planar Gates. However, with 4 Planar Gates I have yet to get my first one while the AI is pumping them out at the rate of nearly one per turn.

Other tough barb demon things are coming too like Fire Elementals, Revelers, and Succubi. Also, plenty of strong Undead barbs to deal with.

Making matters tougher is that the units are spawned with at least 3 promotions. I had one Manticore show up only 7 years old and it had at least 7-8 promotions!! I don't get that. To say the barbs are tough in this portion of the game is an understatement.

I have the CoE wonder that makes my units invisible, but protecting improvements (what few I have - see other thread on invisible hell terrain) against the Manticores is a losing battle. The AI is hanging in there with a dozen or so defenders in each city. And, no improvements, of course.

The new barb system can be dealt with in the early game, but with what I am getting hit with now (still early in an epic speed game), I have to say it is murder.

Prince difficulty, BTW.

 

[xienwolf]

What's your AC at would be the main question with Demons. More of them spawn at higher AC levels, and they get bonus starting XP based on the current AC as well.

Demons are meant to finally provide a good reason to want the AC maintained, at least until you can make peace with them for yourself.

 

[Vehem]

There is one problem I have noticed with barb demons in my game playing as the Sheaim.

Around Turn 400 of an epic speed game, the AI has started spamming Manticores. These are very tough units to deal with due to their strength (especially this early in the game) and their flying/pillage ability. While there fortunately have not been any Manticore stacks, whenever I kill one (this usually takes at least 3 of my units) another spawns just outside my borders and flies in.

The obvious question would be "why are you fighting the demons as the Sheaim?"

Adopting Ashen Veil is all the Sheaim should require to gain peace with the Demons. So long as you follow that religion, the demons are effectively your allies against the other civs...