The Biggest, Baddest Unit

[Gattamelata]

My gripe with this unit is mainly the silliness involved. Most of the arguments in favor seem to rest on two points.

1. "This is cool." That's a matter of taste, so I won't comment other than to say that I (and, it seems, others) disagree. None of us will convince anybody else on this point.

2. "This is more realistic than FTL drives or Leonardo's Workshop or some other game mechanic I can mention."

If you replace "realistic" with "conceivable," then I can get behind that statement. But for something to be realistic, it also has to be plausible, and this unit as presented isn't. Giant bipedal war robots are militarily ridiculous. If legs were better than wheels, our cars would have them. Why would you build something that's huge, slow, and a massive target when you could instead build things with equivalent firepower that are small, fast, more adaptable, and more easily mass-produced?

(What's more, colonizing Alpha Centauri within the scope of the game would not require FTL drives.)

The problem I have with this isn't balance or gameplay, it's all in tone. If they had called the unit Ultra-Modern Armor and given it an icon that doesn't look like something out of Robotech, then I'd be totally fine with it. Instead they opted for the silly/trivializing route, which I think takes away from the scope and grandeur of a game that spans the history of human civilization.

To me it's similar to the way I'd feel if they had replaced the Knight unit with Knights Who Say Ni, or Spearmen with Pointy Stick Guys. There are plenty of games out there that go for that kind of goofy humor, and the Civ series, with a few very easily ignorable exceptions, has not been one of them. This exception is harder to ignore, in particular because it comes at the late game. It's like playing this massive, grave game only to be presented with Homey the Clown as the final unit, the pinnacle of your civilization's climb from scattered tribes to future greatness.

Hopefully this game is as moddable or more moddable than Civ4 was. I have no doubt that a tasteful mod will appear soon after release.

 

[Schuesseled]

Hmm, for game balance reasons, maybe the GDR should be a non-uranium based unit, so that civs without nukes have a chance to fight back against a nuclear power.

thats what oil is for

 

[beestar]

To me it's similar to the way I'd feel if they had replaced the Knight unit with Knights Who Say Ni, or Spearmen with Pointy Stick Guys.

Have you seen the screenshot where the military news update (ranking of civs by military power) is titled "Alberti has completed his greatest work, the list of THE PEOPLE WITH THE POINTIEST STICKS"?

I think it's in one of the screenshots that was recently pulled.

Hmm, for game balance reasons, maybe the GDR should be a non-uranium based unit, so that civs without nukes have a chance to fight back against a nuclear power.

thats what oil is for

Hmm ... that's true

 

[Arkangelus]

I really don't see whats such a big deal about this. As was said, it fills a role in the tech tree for an offensive unit strong enough to break down top-tier entrenched defenders, otherwise in the late game you could end up finding it almost impossible to go for conquest without a significant tech advantage or resorting to nukes. In terms of "near-future warfare", while purists will complain about how a mech has realistic weaknesses, within western pop culture, military mechs have been a staple of soft sci-fi for many, many years now. Complaining about it not being realistic is a very specific, elitist claim that the majority of people really wont care or remotely think deeply enough to care, its just a part of how our culture has tended to view 'the future'.

It COULD be some sort of next "Modern Armour" type thing, but while most people can accept that there are huge differences between WW2 Tigers and modern Abrams, within a game they're still ultimately just two different types of tanks, and pretty boring. A mech unit is a clear, unmistakable, unique unit with its own flavour and personality, ideal from a game design perspective. If you want to mod it out to an advanced M4 Abrams+ concept, that option will be available to you, but for the base game this is absolutely a better choice than just going Tank - Better Tank - Uber Tank.

 

[ottocrat]

Have you seen the screenshot where the military news update (ranking of civs by military power) is titled "Alberti has completed his greatest work, the list of THE PEOPLE WITH THE POINTIEST STICKS"?

If China is #1 in land area, does Alberti say that Wu Zetian has huge tracts of land?

 

[whats a navy]

I like the idea of the unit but the way the civelopodia entry is written it seems like a joke.

 

[DeepQantas]

Have you seen the screenshot where the military news update (ranking of civs by military power) is titled "Alberti has completed his greatest work, the list of THE PEOPLE WITH THE POINTIEST STICKS"?

If China is #1 in land area, does Alberti say that Wu Zetian has huge tracts of land?

That reminds me, the future era the list-makers should be Isaac Asimov, George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Philip K. Dick and H. G. Wells.

 

[tcjsavannah]

There is good sense of humor and there is bad sense of humor. Blizzard games for example have humor that is not stupid but between the lines. This is just plain stupid. Not the biggest problem with this game, but bad anyway.

Your humor's bad and you should feel bad.

 

[Schuesseled]

Your humor's bad and you should feel bad.

Although i do think blizzard has absolutley no sense of humour, but that was kinda harsh.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Could still have been a tank. Tactially useful, sense-making tank, with a proper tanky name, and a fear of spears, for *good* humor

A 3rd tank? I'd say game designers have absolutely no fantasy if they would do so

 

[Venereus]

A 3rd tank? I'd say game designers have absolutely no fantasy if they would do so

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/oz-07ms.htm ?

 

[Ahriman]

I like the idea of the unit but the way the civelopodia entry is written it seems like a joke.

Rather like the Mech unit in Next War from BTS, no?

The civilopedia entry for that one is similar.

 

[Crezth]

My gripe with this unit is mainly the silliness involved. Most of the arguments in favor seem to rest on two points.

1. "This is cool." That's a matter of taste, so I won't comment other than to say that I (and, it seems, others) disagree. None of us will convince anybody else on this point.

2. "This is more realistic than FTL drives or Leonardo's Workshop or some other game mechanic I can mention."

1. Sure.

2. It is.

If you replace "realistic" with "conceivable," then I can get behind that statement. But for something to be realistic, it also has to be plausible, and this unit as presented isn't. Giant bipedal war robots are militarily ridiculous. If legs were better than wheels, our cars would have them. Why would you build something that's huge, slow, and a massive target when you could instead build things with equivalent firepower that are small, fast, more adaptable, and more easily mass-produced?

Woah, I can tell you've never gone to engineering school. Something to consider regarding legs versus wheels:

1. Legs require more energy to operate than wheels. It is highly unfeasible (and unnecessary with our nice flat roads) to put legs on cars because the energy concerns are astronomical. You forego momentum and must surrender to an eternal struggle with inertia which would give you a titanic gas bill.

*however*

2. Legs are also far more maneuverable than wheels. I don't know about you, but on my two legs I can climb up mountains, skip across rocks and rivers, use ladders and stairways and operate wheeled vehicles. There are terrains I can move across with the ease a wheeled vehicle might dream of, and try as they might treads can only do so much to mitigate the off-road difficulties.

The advantage of the legged walker is in its maximum maneuverability. It can turn much more easily, traverse difficult terrain, and if sufficiently advanced can scale cliffs (although we're a long way from the GECKOs of MGS4).

In some ways, the four-legged walker is a bit more logical, however still not as maneuverable as the two-legged walker in terms of terrain mastery.

(Indeed, the legs are a weakness, as I'm sure many are quick to note, but so too are treads. Snipe a tread, tanker's dead. The point being that walkers are theorized for a reason, and that reason is mainly mobility.)

(What's more, colonizing Alpha Centauri within the scope of the game would not require FTL drives.)

Nice strawman! So tell me again how the colony ship is self-sustaining over the course of 20 years? That would take some mad tech, all of which is not currently in existence.

The problem I have with this isn't balance or gameplay, it's all in tone. If they had called the unit Ultra-Modern Armor and given it an icon that doesn't look like something out of Robotech, then I'd be totally fine with it. Instead they opted for the silly/trivializing route, which I think takes away from the scope and grandeur of a game that spans the history of human civilization.

You're taking this game far, far too seriously. I'm sure you laughed at Nimoy's "Beep... beep... beep" and didn't give it a second thought, certainly not enough to say "Nimoy is trivializing the epic scope of this game!"

A joke here and there lightens the mood, and you're really thinking much too hard about this to take issue of the robot for not being serious enough. Civilization is hardly serious by itself.

To me it's similar to the way I'd feel if they had replaced the Knight unit with Knights Who Say Ni, or Spearmen with Pointy Stick Guys. There are plenty of games out there that go for that kind of goofy humor, and the Civ series, with a few very easily ignorable exceptions, has not been one of them. This exception is harder to ignore, in particular because it comes at the late game. It's like playing this massive, grave game only to be presented with Homey the Clown as the final unit, the pinnacle of your civilization's climb from scattered tribes to future greatness.

Hopefully this game is as moddable or more moddable than Civ4 was. I have no doubt that a tasteful mod will appear soon after release.

"A few very easily ignorable exceptions" you say? Funny as that is, it is also worth pointing out you are massively exaggerating this. The Giant Death Robot (if that is it's real name) is a world and away from any Homey the Clown, let alone Knights Who Say Ni. You act as though no civilization or general or scientist is crazy enough to name his mech a Giant Death Robot, as if humanity is incapable of doing so - that is clearly not the case, quod erad demonstrandum.

It is the definition of taste to treat a game about civilization with a certain joie de vivre, lest you have us stuck with random events like "the Holocaust" or "Black Plague." The units of Civ IV looked very cartoony, and if Civ V, with its optimistic bright art style, chooses to implement a big mechanized robot for a late game combat unit, then so be it.

tl;dr relax. How do you enjoy life if you treat everything with such a skeptical eye?

 

[Polobo]

Forgive for not reading the other 23 pages of comments but the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw this was the Planet Assault weapons from the Andromeda series.

That said; I am somewhat disappointed that there is only 1 futuristic weapon platform in the game. I can imagine it would take quite a bit of work to balance 1 future unit against modern technology units but it would be easier and more fun if there were more future weapons to balance against. I guess in the end the important part - for me - is whether a late non-military victory is feasible if your aggressive opponents are building these robots while you are hunkering down in your cities; or more generally if late modern armies stand a chance against the first wave of GDRs.

 

[DeepQantas]

1. Legs require more energy to operate than wheels. It is highly unfeasible (and unnecessary with our nice flat roads) to put legs on cars because the energy concerns are astronomical. You forego momentum and must surrender to an eternal struggle with inertia which would give you a titanic gas bill.

Legs don't have to forego momentum. Real legs, for example, have tendons to store energy when you put your foot down and release it when you take a step. You'd need some sort of sophisticated spring system.

The real problem is that with the amount of moving parts you need construct a leg, friction is gonna be a major pain in the ass. The fact that each part weighs a ton doesn't help either.

(If you really want mobility, though, go for jump jets )


Also, anyone who likes giant robots better check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Krv3gE-c4&feature=channel

 

[Venereus]

Insectoid design is the way to go. Bugs anathomy is awesome to traverse all sorts of surfaces and they have super-strength (proportionally), but they are small because their respiratory system can't take much pressure. If you ask me, a main ballistic cannon, two machine guns and an RPG launcher on six legs beats the crap out of anything else, and it doesn't even need to be much tall. Bipedal GDR doesn't stand a chance. Actually, if that was in the game, I wouldn't mind if it's named Giant Death Robot, 'cus it'd made sense then.

 

[stealth_nsk]

it doesn't even need to be much tall

What if height became the main characteristic? For example beam weapons are the only ones effective against kinetic barriers, so you need to be tall to shoot at longer range. And you can't mount these beam weapons and kinetic barriers on flying machines, since they need a very heavy reactor?

You could make any assumptions - it's future technology

 

[Venereus]

Like this?

 

[stealth_nsk]

Like this?

Why not?

 

[aziantuntija]

Its funny to see that people are looking at future era in civ game and saying that it is realistic And stating that what we see in the civs future era is representing the real future.