1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The Biggest, Baddest Unit

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by 2K Greg, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. Gattamelata

    Gattamelata Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2005
    Messages:
    56
    My gripe with this unit is mainly the silliness involved. Most of the arguments in favor seem to rest on two points.

    1. "This is cool." That's a matter of taste, so I won't comment other than to say that I (and, it seems, others) disagree. None of us will convince anybody else on this point.

    2. "This is more realistic than FTL drives or Leonardo's Workshop or some other game mechanic I can mention."

    If you replace "realistic" with "conceivable," then I can get behind that statement. But for something to be realistic, it also has to be plausible, and this unit as presented isn't. Giant bipedal war robots are militarily ridiculous. If legs were better than wheels, our cars would have them. Why would you build something that's huge, slow, and a massive target when you could instead build things with equivalent firepower that are small, fast, more adaptable, and more easily mass-produced?

    (What's more, colonizing Alpha Centauri within the scope of the game would not require FTL drives.)

    The problem I have with this isn't balance or gameplay, it's all in tone. If they had called the unit Ultra-Modern Armor and given it an icon that doesn't look like something out of Robotech, then I'd be totally fine with it. Instead they opted for the silly/trivializing route, which I think takes away from the scope and grandeur of a game that spans the history of human civilization.

    To me it's similar to the way I'd feel if they had replaced the Knight unit with Knights Who Say Ni, or Spearmen with Pointy Stick Guys. There are plenty of games out there that go for that kind of goofy humor, and the Civ series, with a few very easily ignorable exceptions, has not been one of them. This exception is harder to ignore, in particular because it comes at the late game. It's like playing this massive, grave game only to be presented with Homey the Clown as the final unit, the pinnacle of your civilization's climb from scattered tribes to future greatness.

    Hopefully this game is as moddable or more moddable than Civ4 was. I have no doubt that a tasteful mod will appear soon after release.
     
  2. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,081
    thats what oil is for
     
  3. beestar

    beestar subdeity

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2005
    Messages:
    1,595
    Location:
    Pacific Standard Time
    Have you seen the screenshot where the military news update (ranking of civs by military power) is titled "Alberti has completed his greatest work, the list of THE PEOPLE WITH THE POINTIEST STICKS"? :D

    I think it's in one of the screenshots that was recently pulled.

    Hmm ... that's true
     
  4. Arkangelus

    Arkangelus Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2010
    Messages:
    313
    Location:
    Scotland
    I really don't see whats such a big deal about this. As was said, it fills a role in the tech tree for an offensive unit strong enough to break down top-tier entrenched defenders, otherwise in the late game you could end up finding it almost impossible to go for conquest without a significant tech advantage or resorting to nukes. In terms of "near-future warfare", while purists will complain about how a mech has realistic weaknesses, within western pop culture, military mechs have been a staple of soft sci-fi for many, many years now. Complaining about it not being realistic is a very specific, elitist claim that the majority of people really wont care or remotely think deeply enough to care, its just a part of how our culture has tended to view 'the future'.

    It COULD be some sort of next "Modern Armour" type thing, but while most people can accept that there are huge differences between WW2 Tigers and modern Abrams, within a game they're still ultimately just two different types of tanks, and pretty boring. A mech unit is a clear, unmistakable, unique unit with its own flavour and personality, ideal from a game design perspective. If you want to mod it out to an advanced M4 Abrams+ concept, that option will be available to you, but for the base game this is absolutely a better choice than just going Tank - Better Tank - Uber Tank.
     
  5. ottocrat

    ottocrat Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Messages:
    26
    Have you seen the screenshot where the military news update (ranking of civs by military power) is titled "Alberti has completed his greatest work, the list of THE PEOPLE WITH THE POINTIEST STICKS"?

    If China is #1 in land area, does Alberti say that Wu Zetian has huge tracts of land?
     
  6. whats a navy

    whats a navy Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Pangea
    I like the idea of the unit but the way the civelopodia entry is written it seems like a joke.
     
  7. DeepQantas

    DeepQantas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    88
    That reminds me, the future era the list-makers should be Isaac Asimov, George Orwell, Aldous Huxley, Philip K. Dick and H. G. Wells.
     
  8. tcjsavannah

    tcjsavannah Wow, it's been a while...

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2001
    Messages:
    1,275
    Location:
    uh, Savannah :)
    Your humor's bad and you should feel bad.
     
  9. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,081
    Although i do think blizzard has absolutley no sense of humour, but that was kinda harsh.
     
  10. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,507
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    A 3rd tank? I'd say game designers have absolutely no fantasy if they would do so :lol:
     
  11. Venereus

    Venereus This Is Streamlined!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,026
  12. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,266
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Rather like the Mech unit in Next War from BTS, no?

    The civilopedia entry for that one is similar.
     
  13. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    10,425
    Location:
    北京皇城
    1. Sure.

    2. It is.

    Woah, I can tell you've never gone to engineering school. Something to consider regarding legs versus wheels:

    1. Legs require more energy to operate than wheels. It is highly unfeasible (and unnecessary with our nice flat roads) to put legs on cars because the energy concerns are astronomical. You forego momentum and must surrender to an eternal struggle with inertia which would give you a titanic gas bill.

    *however*

    2. Legs are also far more maneuverable than wheels. I don't know about you, but on my two legs I can climb up mountains, skip across rocks and rivers, use ladders and stairways and operate wheeled vehicles. There are terrains I can move across with the ease a wheeled vehicle might dream of, and try as they might treads can only do so much to mitigate the off-road difficulties.

    The advantage of the legged walker is in its maximum maneuverability. It can turn much more easily, traverse difficult terrain, and if sufficiently advanced can scale cliffs (although we're a long way from the GECKOs of MGS4).

    In some ways, the four-legged walker is a bit more logical, however still not as maneuverable as the two-legged walker in terms of terrain mastery.

    (Indeed, the legs are a weakness, as I'm sure many are quick to note, but so too are treads. Snipe a tread, tanker's dead. :cool: The point being that walkers are theorized for a reason, and that reason is mainly mobility.)

    Nice strawman! So tell me again how the colony ship is self-sustaining over the course of 20 years? That would take some mad tech, all of which is not currently in existence.

    You're taking this game far, far too seriously. I'm sure you laughed at Nimoy's "Beep... beep... beep" and didn't give it a second thought, certainly not enough to say "Nimoy is trivializing the epic scope of this game!"

    A joke here and there lightens the mood, and you're really thinking much too hard about this to take issue of the robot for not being serious enough. Civilization is hardly serious by itself.

    "A few very easily ignorable exceptions" you say? Funny as that is, it is also worth pointing out you are massively exaggerating this. The Giant Death Robot (if that is it's real name) is a world and away from any Homey the Clown, let alone Knights Who Say Ni. You act as though no civilization or general or scientist is crazy enough to name his mech a Giant Death Robot, as if humanity is incapable of doing so - that is clearly not the case, quod erad demonstrandum.

    It is the definition of taste to treat a game about civilization with a certain joie de vivre, lest you have us stuck with random events like "the Holocaust" or "Black Plague." The units of Civ IV looked very cartoony, and if Civ V, with its optimistic bright art style, chooses to implement a big mechanized robot for a late game combat unit, then so be it.

    tl;dr relax. How do you enjoy life if you treat everything with such a skeptical eye?
     
  14. Polobo

    Polobo Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,537
    Forgive for not reading the other 23 pages of comments but the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw this was the Planet Assault weapons from the Andromeda series.

    That said; I am somewhat disappointed that there is only 1 futuristic weapon platform in the game. I can imagine it would take quite a bit of work to balance 1 future unit against modern technology units but it would be easier and more fun if there were more future weapons to balance against. I guess in the end the important part - for me - is whether a late non-military victory is feasible if your aggressive opponents are building these robots while you are hunkering down in your cities; or more generally if late modern armies stand a chance against the first wave of GDRs.
     
  15. DeepQantas

    DeepQantas Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    88
    Legs don't have to forego momentum. Real legs, for example, have tendons to store energy when you put your foot down and release it when you take a step. You'd need some sort of sophisticated spring system.

    The real problem is that with the amount of moving parts you need construct a leg, friction is gonna be a major pain in the ass. The fact that each part weighs a ton doesn't help either.

    (If you really want mobility, though, go for jump jets :p)


    Also, anyone who likes giant robots better check this out:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Krv3gE-c4&feature=channel
     
  16. Venereus

    Venereus This Is Streamlined!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,026
    Insectoid design is the way to go. Bugs anathomy is awesome to traverse all sorts of surfaces and they have super-strength (proportionally), but they are small because their respiratory system can't take much pressure. If you ask me, a main ballistic cannon, two machine guns and an RPG launcher on six legs beats the crap out of anything else, and it doesn't even need to be much tall. Bipedal GDR doesn't stand a chance. Actually, if that was in the game, I wouldn't mind if it's named Giant Death Robot, 'cus it'd made sense then.
     
  17. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,507
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    What if height became the main characteristic? For example beam weapons are the only ones effective against kinetic barriers, so you need to be tall to shoot at longer range. And you can't mount these beam weapons and kinetic barriers on flying machines, since they need a very heavy reactor?

    You could make any assumptions - it's future technology :)
     
  18. Venereus

    Venereus This Is Streamlined!

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,026
    Like this?

     
  19. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,507
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Novosibirsk, Russia
    Why not? :)
     
  20. aziantuntija

    aziantuntija Prince

    Joined:
    May 21, 2010
    Messages:
    533
    Location:
    Finland
    Its funny to see that people are looking at future era in civ game and saying that it is realistic :D And stating that what we see in the civs future era is representing the real future. :)
     

Share This Page