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The Biggest, Baddest Unit

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by 2K Greg, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. lichen8566

    lichen8566 Warlord

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    Well, the Civ5 is focus on balance for gameplay, not the realistic. But I think the bipped robot with Kung-Fu punch is really ridiculous, can you destroy a tank or a bunker with that kung-fu punch? Or at the least, it's a very very old idea for Sci-Fi.
     
  2. Schuesseled

    Schuesseled Deity

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    the communicator in the really old series of star trek ir very old sci-fi, didn't stop mobile phones from happening.
     
  3. Inhalaattori

    Inhalaattori Emperor

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    I dont really understand what you are talking about.

    Anyway, its all about style. Its about what feels right for the civilization series. I dont think this kind of (bad) humor has a place in a game like this. Its just feels so stupid to have serious game, but then all of sudden there is something that doesnt fit the picture.
     
  4. aziantuntija

    aziantuntija Prince

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    What i meant to say was that first Firaxis gives us a Giant Death Robot and after that some people are saying that it IS realistic and it most likely WILL happen in future. Its funny :)
     
  5. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Oh, certainly, but you get less momentum than you do with those wonderful, wonderful shapes known as wheels. Nonetheless, that only enhances my point.

    (And jump jets? Talk about fuel! The nice thing about the robot is nuclear power means it can be easily energized, but jump jets would actually require a burning fuel for propulsion - or some other technology-thing.)
     
  6. Gattamelata

    Gattamelata Chieftain

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    Interesting theory.

    Practical engineering is all about efficiency. Legs fail the test. Legs require more material, more energy, more design and implementation time, more maintenance, and considerably more computer assistance than wheels.


    These advantages disappear when you scale up to giant robot size, because of problems of scale. Large, heavy objects are extremely prone to failure of the surface they rest on (or, in this case, move across). Super-heavy tanks in WWII saw some of this problem: they were confined to paved roads because the integrity of other surfaces couldn't support them, and even then they were very rough on the roads. A giant, bipedal robot would have to deal with serious deformation of the surface it was on even while at rest. While moving this would be even worse: the physics involved in favorable conditions would be closest to what you and I experience when running on dry sand. In unfavorable conditions it would be more like running in quicksand. This is a matter of putting a huge amount of weight on a very small surface area (a single foot).

    There are all kinds of engineering problems with giant bipedal robots(hip joints are a particular problem), but those can be explained away with future tech. Future tech isn't going to change the quality of the ground beneath the robot, though. A giant robot walks across anything but exposed stone and it gets significant sinking and deformation of the surface. If it tries to climb a mountain, it'll shear the surface it's clinging to right off.


    What's more, tip something huge and bipedal over, and it will need considerable assistance getting up. That's a catastrophic failure mode in battle, and that's why problems with surface integrity are such a big deal for this concept.


    In any event, every advantage you cite for legs over wheels is trumped by flight. Your "maximum maneuverability" is far less than, say, a helicopter's. Current technology already surpasses the benefits of giant bipedal locomotion: wheels for cheapness and reliability, flight for maneuverability (and still cheaper and more reliable than giant legs - far, far fewer moving parts), and both for speed. The only thing giant robot legs do better than either is fill a sci-fi story.



    "Quod erat demonstrandum" goes after a proof, not a suggestion ;)


    Another possibility is that you're taking my post too seriously. People asked for more substantive feedback than just "I don't like it," so I offered some. I think I may have misunderstood the tone of this discussion, though. I'm not asking you to agree with me.


    I like how you accuse me of exaggeration and then suggest that I want Holocaust events and can't enjoy life because I don't like one element of a game. Nice turnaround! Must be those super-mobile legs you have ;)

    Wait, hang on a second! I thought you were trying to understand my point so we could each come to a greater understanding of one another! Ha ha, my mistake! Now I realize that instead you're trying to belittle me because I disagree with you. In that case, disregard what I wrote above. You win, sir. I cried myself to sleep last night, you are a smarter (and doubtlessly superior) person than I am, U R in my base, u can haz cheezburger and you won the internet. Well played.

    Regardless, enjoy the game when it comes out! I plan to.
     
  7. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    My other problem with this unit is it's only one. Where are the other future age units? Is there nothing between modern armor and this? You have to be kidding me. That's a silly transition. But then again, civ4 had awkward unit transitions. They simply did not design enough units.

    Firaxis needs to go back and finish making this game. It's obvious they didn't finish this future era. There needs to be at least 2 more land units, along with future naval and air units.
     
  8. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Yeah I was hoping for some... SG: Atlantis style dropships or whatever they're called and maybe some "universal soldier" style infantry...
     
  9. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    Yup. Advanced futuristic infantry should be on there too. That's far more realistic than a robot.

    Infantry will still be needed in the future. Someone has to deal with the local civilian population (unless you just kill them all :D), how is a robot going to handle crowd control? Even if it is controlled by a human remotely a robot cannot convey emotion and cannot interact with the local population.

    But then again I'm getting carried away here. I realize gameplay>realism. But what that simple equation doesn't accurately show is that realism improves gameplay.
     
  10. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    It's pretty apparent that either they just gave us a taste of the future era and we will have a nice surprise when the game comes out (3 or 4 future techs and units that they won't show to previewers) or that they will flesh out the future era in an expansion pack.

    We've seen the tech tree but by no means is it set in stone.

    Not too worried here. :)
     
  11. Ashbery76

    Ashbery76 Warlord

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    That is just a joke unit.Make future tech based on some realism and not Metal Gear Stupid.
     
  12. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    BTW I remember something like "Mostly used for crowd control via being big and scary" or something like that in civ4 next war civilopedia entry about mech. Not sure though, have to check it out later...

    I wish I had your um... positiveness...
     
  13. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Efficiency by all means, however different purposes call for different modes of use. Wheels are certainly more efficient for roads and flat, solid terrain, but legs can handle uncertain terrain better.

    On that note...

    Assuming, of course, that the robot is giant (OK, the name) and made of a heavy steel. We can use future tech (which you reference below) to change the situation quite mightily - what if the robot is constructed of a special low-density material, which makes it ideal for sandy terrain? What if the robot's feet are padded with a special shock-absorbing surface and/or mechanism that allows it to mitigate the weight it places on its feet?

    Even the heavy tanks had advantages (larger armaments, thicker armor) which was enough to convince German High Command (insane though they were) that it was worth it. In the case of the robots, it is being able to pivot and handle multiple targets better, and gaining a height advantage for increased vision and a better firing arc. Tactically speaking, both would be ideal additions to a battlefield situation... especially one that was plagued by lack of air support due to enemy anti-air or perhaps air superiority.

    See above. Climbing a mountain may be tricky, but a robot designed for it could do so quickly through the use of drills and hooks. The robot doesn't have to be heavy.

    Possibly, if the robot doesn't have failsafes or form and structure that guard against tipping over. In any case, it is no greater a practical weakness than the helicopter's reliance on the fragile spinning blades, or a tank's reliance on its treads, or a human's reliance on his achilles tendon.

    Flight! Hah, yes, possibly, however I'm sure you're aware that flying objects are simply flying "shoot at me" signs. A helicopter is a big target, and vulnerable to anti-air (which in an urban setting can come from anywhere, especially a walker with twin gattling guns), and because flight takes much more energy than walking is limited in its weight. Read this as smaller payload and less armor.

    But as cavalry they do serve the role well, but function more as harassment and ground support than the solid ground support that walkers offer. Refer back to walkers being less of a target in the scope of an entire battlefield, and I think you understand.

    The proof, my all-seeing friend, is that it has been thought up at all.

    Perhaps, but the function of any discussion like this is to convince. Right now, you're trying to convince me that the walker is not feasible, whereas I think there are some roles it could yet fill. The trick is thinking about what a walker can do that helicopters and tanks can't, and the astounding answer is "quite a little bit, actually." Refer to earlier across this post.

    Just as well, I guarantee you I can turn around faster than any tank or helicopter! Nonetheless, my point is that you were speaking of playing long, grave games, which suggested to me that you would feel right at home in a dark atmosphere. The thing you have to understand is that Civilization V is not about the graveness of history - the Holocaust (quite an exaggeration, I know) does not belong here because it is the part of history Civilization in general shies away from. Civilization games are about moving into a brighter tomorrow, full of hope and wonderment and mighty impractical monuments with mighty impractical robot walkers. The Art Deco with all its "gee whillikers tomorrow's gonna be a great day" is evidence enough that the feeling cultivated here is anything but grave. If you really want a grave, grand experience, then I am sorry to say but you have been playing the wrong series.

    Your grammar started to fall apart there at the end but I fail to see what cheeseburgers have to do with this discussion. And how can one win the internet? It seems illogical to me.

    And sir, I never insinuated I was your intellectual superior! I'm simply providing the counterbalance to the snobbery that exists in unfortunate profusion right now regarding robots. No matter how this conversation ends, it will prove neither of us the other's better.

    But if you really want to play coy and repeat internet memes, then I won't bother anymore. I will be disappointed, but in the end...

    The robots are still in the game. :cool:

    Exhibit 1: Snobbery.
     
  14. Mathalamus

    Mathalamus Emperor of Mathalia

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    why should people be cowed to a inferior war Equipment? a piece of strong rope or something is enough to disable it.
     
  15. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Not even close.
     
  16. Mathalamus

    Mathalamus Emperor of Mathalia

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    well regardless of its vulnerabilities i wouldn't succumb to physiological warfare. because i know it is inferior to say.. staring down the barrel of a tank.
     
  17. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    In the future the biggest, baddest unit will the the computer hacker. A nerd with glasses who can hack the GDR. :D

    computer hacking isn't sexy like a big gun, but it could be the future of warfare.
     
  18. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Given that this thing apparently has very decent speed and a ton of firepower, most troops would succumb to the physiological side of the weapon. Then again, this weapon isn't realistic but I'm not picturing it as a 20 foot tall monster but slightly smaller and much faster.

    In any case, I hope exoskeleton troops make it in since those are grounded into reality (moreso). Thankfully, Civ5 looks like its trying to bridge the gap between "Modern" and "Future".

    Hopefully they'll bridge the gap between 1865 and 1939. :lol:
     
  19. A think a quadruped would be more realistic.
     
  20. vorlon_mi

    vorlon_mi Just One More Turn

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    That is the most substantive objection raised -- style, a.k.a. taste. There are a fraction of the posters in this forum who don't like the "salute to the fans / over the top" nature of this unit. When you get down to the actual coding in the game, a GDR works just as well as Modern Armor, Cavalry, or Horse Archer ... it's just another unit, and it obeys the API, not the laws of physics.

    The mod packs are full -- absolutely full -- of whimsical, weird, fantastical units which could not work as they are depicted in their animations. Did you ever watch the Civ4 catapult fall apart when it was defeated ... nay, explode! ... thousands of years before gunpowder or explosives are invented???? All of your engineering analysis is totally missing the point.

    The past practice has been to reserve the wacky/unusual units for mod packs or Easter eggs. A notable exception was putting "Thunderfall" as a Viking city name in the main game, as a nod to our CFC moderator extraordinaire.

    So Firaxis deviated from that past practice, and put a wacky/unusual unit in the vanilla game. Get over it!
     

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