The Bitter Irony

[deadliver]

Oh yeah, so I am playing a game as Auric and my southern, closest neighbors the Calabim founded AV. Everything was going fine, the AC is about 45 right now. Next thing i know they are being overrun and eventually killed by hordes of demons! Woot, was good for a laugh. Anyhow, Bradeline's well was in their territory, was this the source of the horde? Isn't AV supposed to protect against demons, or is that only if you play as infernals/use pax diabolis (what does that do btw?).

Funny anyhow.

 

[Valkrionn]

You're only protected from Demons if you're AV Sheaim, Infernals, or AV anything and finish the Pax Diabolis, sacrificing a city for peace with demons.

 

[deadliver]

You're only protected from Demons if you're AV Sheaim, Infernals, or AV anything and finish the Pax Diabolis, sacrificing a city for peace with demons.

I see. I am assuming you can build Pax Diabolis with the Infernal Pact tech? If so is the AI smart enough to use this cool idea yet?

 

[Sarisin]

I think it comes later than that. Maybe with the tech that allows you to build Eidolons?

I do remember being at a loss on that ritual or whatever it is in my game as there was nothing in the 'pedia on it and I wasn't online to check out those resources.

Also missing from the 'pedia, I believe, are those special holy places for the Elohim and what the do/provide. I have been playing Einion Logos in my game and just wandering around the large map trying to hit them all - they are faintly highlighted, but until I get to one I'm not sure what it does.

 

[stupidnewbie]

Maybe. It's ultra expensive, but it does have a very high weight value. I've never seen an AI build it, though that could be because it's been a while since I've seen an AI with anything other than RoK, FoL or OO, or because the civs that need it tend to die out before they can complete it.

Bradeline's well can be fun, though. It's considered hell terrain until cleansed and follows all the same rules for spreading. Archos were dominating early on in a game I was playing as Sheaim not long ago. They had the well in their territory and had no religion, so I gave them AV. And then they died.

Unfortunately, the English major in me is going to have to beat you with this:

i⋅ro⋅ny [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-]
–noun, plural -nies.
...
6. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected. ...

 

[deadliver]

Unfortunately, the English major in me is going to have to beat you with this:

Good strategy and fitting for AV if you ask me.

Unfortunately the English in me is going to have to beat you with this:

Bradeline's Well becomes lucrative with the right techs...but in this case it killed the the Calabim...wow!

Ironic huh? An English major getting pwned after proclaiming his cleverness with words.

 

[stupidnewbie]

Except there's no irony in that situation. The destruction of the Calabim is exactly what would be expected if they adopt AV with Bradeline's Well.

Also, I don't recall proclaiming anything.

 

[deadliver]

Sure there is, and sure you did.

Ashen Veil is not about ending the world (that is a Sheiam leader thing), it is about gaining power at the expense of souls (theirs or others it does not matter). Also Bradeline's Well gives you benefits with the proper techs. The Calabim, converting to AV in the hopes of gaining power and cool Bradeline's Well benefits got neither...they died.

Enough said.

 

[stupidnewbie]

Okay, sure, there is some irony from a lore perspective. However, from a gameplay perspective, the Sheaim are perhaps the only AI civ capable of surviving in hell terrain, especially when the national units start spawning. As I said, the Archos were going really strong up until the point where I gave them AV. Hell terrain razes all your forests, renders your flood plains useless, takes away all your health bonuses, and then spawns swarms of hostile units that pillage your improvements, wear down your defenses, and spread diseases. Practically speaking, you put yourself at a huge disadvantage by adopting AV while controlling Bradeline's Well, which is only +4 commerce (with techs, the same as a village improvement, since the +4 from necromancy and the +4 from CoS don't stack), an entropy node and an epic dungeon lair. It's not very lucrative, and the 1 production/commerce you gain by adopting AV (for a total of ~2/2/5!) are hardly worth the consequences of spreading hell terrain everywhere.

So, it's no real surprise that the Calabim died from hell terrain. They're also disadvantaged simply by being Calabim in the first place, as the AI doesn't seem to like building Governor's Manors, which are required to build vampires.

And I still don't see how my threat of dictionary violence equates to a proclamation that I am clever with words. If that's the impression you get from reading my posts, however, I guess I'll take it as a compliment.

 

[deadliver]

Okay, sure, there is some irony...

Like I said, enough said.

 

[stupidnewbie]

I suppose, but please don't strawman me in the future!

 

[Crazy_Ivan]

But you're just a stupid newbie.

heh.

 

[ICanHasName?]

The AI rarely lives long enough to build the pax... AV = loose. As soon as hell hits their land its over because their stuff gets pilliaged.

Personally I think the problem is how Agares gets tech basically ensures the demons are spawning units more advanced, or equally advanced as whatever they are fighting, plus they spawn forever, plus they pilliage and kill workers, plus they spawn highly promoted.

 

[deadliver]

It is funny that you can use Bradeline's well against people with AV though but that seems more like an AI exploit than anything else. Perhaps infernal pact should create peace with the Agares barbs upon discovery (a boobie prize for the later comers?) with pax diabolis being useful for none AV civs...though pax is more useful for AV civs with demons running through their lands.

Or would it be possible to have infernal pact provide a temporary peace say for 50 turns?

 

[JimMorrison]

Dunno if this would be difficult to implement..... but if there were a way to grant temporary peace with Agares based on whether or not, and/or how much you are contributing to the AC. So if the AI actually goes AV, and starts building the applicable wonders, and creating their own damned units and whatnot, Agares says "you're doing it right, I'll save you for last".

 

[xienwolf]

The original design for peace with demons was vastly different from anything that I think anyone is likely to think of on their own. Code-wise complicated, but gameplay-wise straightforward (fairly). I am reasonably certain that the final decision was to go ahead with it, but to use this setup for the time being. As such, once I get current bugs sorted out and the major projects for 51 polished, it may undergo a significant change.