The Celts

[Furkhail]

You tested versus higher CS enemies, yes? Always +1? I had it working just fine yesterday, but with no C++ optimizations in place. Who knows– optimizations of compiler can sometimes cause code to be skipped.

G

Archers, Warriors, Spearmen and one Barbarian Horseman. Every kill +1. I wasn't checking on every kill but sure on a few of each. I'll give it another round at get back to you. This time checking on actual numbers not only UI sprouts.

 

[Furkhail]

Pictish Warrior killing a Barbarian Spearman
+1 Food
+1 GAP
+6 Faith (I believe 5 of those are from the pictish itself right?

Spanish spearmen suiciding against same Pictish warrior same result.
War Elephant killing a horseman +1.

The number started to grew later on. Killing a barbarian knight gives +2 of each (30 culture which is weird, no camp) But, at any point it was only 1/10 strength. Not half. I tested it all the way through X-Com and it was +10 (+125 culture instead of +100). So yeah, 10%. Same thing, except culture ofc, against other civs units. I didn't test just barbarians ofc.

I hope this testing helps you.

 

[Gazebo]

Pictish Warrior killing a Barbarian Spearman
+1 Food
+1 GAP
+6 Faith (I believe 5 of those are from the pictish itself right?

Spanish spearmen suiciding against same Pictish warrior same result.
War Elephant killing a horseman +1.

The number started to grew later on. Killing a barbarian knight gives +2 of each (30 culture which is weird, no camp) But, at any point it was only 1/10 strength. Not half. I tested it all the way through X-Com and it was +10 (+125 culture instead of +100). So yeah, 10%. Same thing, except culture ofc, against other civs units. I didn't test just barbarians ofc.

I hope this testing helps you.

Yep! Thanks for this. I think the compiler skipped a 'case' issue I need to look at.

G

 

[Furkhail]

Is just the celt pantheon or the might opener is wrong too? I thought it was STR as culture and right now is STR*1.25

 

[Funak]

You tested versus higher CS enemies, yes? Always +1? I had it working just fine yesterday, but with no C++ optimizations in place. Who knows– optimizations of compiler can sometimes cause code to be skipped.

G

even if it provided +1 for a brute, that would probably be way too low, I was expecting numbers along 100% cs.

 

[Gazebo]

Is just the celt pantheon or the might opener is wrong too? I thought it was STR as culture and right now is STR*1.25

It is a unified function, so the code for one affects all. The problem is that each yield is pushed through independently, leaving room for integer errors.

G

 

[void_genesis]

Just play tested celts on a few version 8.5 games. Standard size map, comments, on warlord difficulty. Even going for the morrigan faith/etc on kills pantheon plus a lot of war with barbs and a neighbor, and quickly getting three cities going that all built a shrine first, I was unable to get a religion by a wide margin (still needed another 70 or so in culture when the last religion went). Given that stonehenge seems almost impossible to get (I lost it when I bee lined it on a production heavy start) and temples come too late in the tech tree, how exactly do you get a religion? Is this a general problem or just an issue for the celts? Do their pantheons that give so little faith compared to resource based faith pantheons cause them to fall behind?

 

[Gazebo]

Just play tested celts on a few version 8.5 games. Standard size map, comments, on warlord difficulty. Even going for the morrigan faith/etc on kills pantheon plus a lot of war with barbs and a neighbor, and quickly getting three cities going that all built a shrine first, I was unable to get a religion by a wide margin (still needed another 70 or so in culture when the last religion went). Given that stonehenge seems almost impossible to get (I lost it when I bee lined it on a production heavy start) and temples come too late in the tech tree, how exactly do you get a religion? Is this a general problem or just an issue for the celts? Do their pantheons that give so little faith compared to resource based faith pantheons cause them to fall behind?

Morrigan is a little bugged ATM - not the strongest pantheon right now because of that. I've got a fix, just addressing a few other smaller quirks first.

G

 

[Funak]

Just play tested celts on a few version 8.5 games. Standard size map, comments, on warlord difficulty. Even going for the morrigan faith/etc on kills pantheon plus a lot of war with barbs and a neighbor, and quickly getting three cities going that all built a shrine first, I was unable to get a religion by a wide margin (still needed another 70 or so in culture when the last religion went). Given that stonehenge seems almost impossible to get (I lost it when I bee lined it on a production heavy start) and temples come too late in the tech tree, how exactly do you get a religion? Is this a general problem or just an issue for the celts? Do their pantheons that give so little faith compared to resource based faith pantheons cause them to fall behind?

How you get a religion? Well first of all, you make sure you get an early pantheon, either by rushing the Stonehenge, building a really early shrine or lucking out like crazy with ancient ruins and city-states (assuming you're not a civ that gets early bonus-faith from somewhere).

Next step is to pick a good pantheon, something that gives you a lot of faith, right now. Faith from mines or pastures is a pretty good move assuming you got a worker, researched the right techs and actually have those kinds of resources around. Other than those, there are a few that adds 2 faith to your capital, those could work.

Third step is to expand, build more cities that you can get faith from, either by building shrines in them or by placing them close to resources that you can improve. Best option is naturally to place your second city next to a natural wonder that provides faith, but I'll assume you don't have any of those close-by.

Forth step is generally just to pray, you're never guaranteed a religion, and if you had bad luck with ruins/city-states and got your pantheon way later than the AI, you're not really going to stand a chance.

Please note that being a civ with religious bias helps A LOT, getting a turn 1 pantheon as India or having access to 2faith/turn buildings as Maya/Ethiopia or even getting a few extra points of faith for settling cities as Spain really gives you an advantage.

 

[void_genesis]

I just tried again and managed to grab stonehenge, then settle next to the NW with 6 faith. I expanded to four cities and built shrines in each first. I also selected the pantheon that gives 3 faith on wonders. Altogether this gave me a religion about 30 turns before they were all gone. So a perfect run still only gave me a religion with a small margin of error. My civ was pretty weak and just building up some population and infrastructure when a neighbour sneak attacked and lost a good city.

I think the problem for the celts is that you don't have access to the faith boost on resource pantheons, making the final push to get a religion far too risky. The faith on kills one is a bit bugged, and the faith on wonders depends on getting wonders.

 

[void_genesis]

I just tried again and managed to grab stonehenge, then settle next to the NW with 6 faith. I expanded to four cities and built shrines in each first. I also selected the pantheon that gives 3 faith on wonders. Altogether this gave me a religion about 30 turns before they were all gone. So a perfect run still only gave me a religion with a small margin of error. My civ was pretty weak and just building up some population and infrastructure when a neighbour sneak attacked and lost a good city.

I think the problem for the celts is that you don't have access to the faith boost on resource pantheons, making the final push to get a religion far too risky. The faith on kills one is a bit bugged and depends on the number of barbs or wars available, and the faith on wonders depends on getting wonders, and currently the AI is extremely competitive for them.

 

[Funak]

I just tried again and managed to grab stonehenge, then settle next to the NW with 6 faith. I expanded to four cities and built shrines in each first. I also selected the pantheon that gives 3 faith on wonders. Altogether this gave me a religion about 30 turns before they were all gone. So a perfect run still only gave me a religion with a small margin of error. My civ was pretty weak and just building up some population and infrastructure when a neighbour sneak attacked and lost a good city.

I think the problem for the celts is that you don't have access to the faith boost on resource pantheons, making the final push to get a religion far too risky. The faith on kills one is a bit bugged, and the faith on wonders depends on getting wonders.

Cernunnos, the Horned Stag: +1 Faith from Forests, +1 Culture from Jungles
Dagda, the All-Father: +1 Culture, Faith, Gold and Science for every 4 followers
Manannan, Son of the Sea: +2 Faith, Production, and Gold in coastal Cities.
Ogma, the Learned: +1 Science for every 3 Citizens in a City, and +5 Faith when a Citizen is born.
Rhiannon, Goddess of Sovereignty: +1 Faith, Gold, Food, and Production per following City.
Bran, The Sleeping Guardian: +20% increase to Ranged Combat Strength, +20% Growth, and +1 Faith in every City

These all seem reasonable enough for grabbing a religion pretty much every time.

Epona, the Great Mare: Receive +5 Faith, Culture, and Food when your Borders expand.

Would work fine if you go tradition or might, probably a lot weaker with liberty as you don't have any border-expansion bonuses.

Morrigan, Harbinger of Strife: Earn Faith, Food, and Golden Age Points from kills.

Would work fine if it wasn't bugged.

Lugh, the Skilled One: +3 Culture and Gold in Cities with a Specialist, +3 Faith from World Wonders

This one along with any wonder is probably a sure deal as well.

Nuada, the Silver-Handed King: +1 Faith for every 10 Gold per turn, and +1 Culture for every 10 Science per turn.

I don't see a situation where this one would lead to a religion.

 

[Gazebo]

These all seem reasonable enough for grabbing a religion pretty much every time.



Would work fine if you go tradition or might, probably a lot weaker with liberty as you don't have any border-expansion bonuses.


Would work fine if it wasn't bugged.


This one along with any wonder is probably a sure deal as well.


I don't see a situation where this one would lead to a religion.

Nuada needs a buff, yep. I'm thinking 8GPT/SPT instead of 10.
G

 

[Funak]

Nuada needs a buff, yep. I'm thinking 8GPT/SPT instead of 10.
G

Not going to give you a religion anyways mostly because the superearly game is the point in the game where you have no gold-income at all. this pantheon is probably great in the mid to lategame however.

 

[Furkhail]

Not going to give you a religion anyways mostly because the superearly game is the point in the game where you have no gold-income at all. this pantheon is probably great in the mid to lategame however.

By then you probably have another civ's religion and your pantheon does nothing.

 

[Finarvi]

Yeah, I take +1X/10Y pantheons because they rock on later in game (that's actualy hidden almost +10% global bonus). Maybe that's not intented (pantheons should benefit small, early empires and we don't want too much % bonusses).

Anyway, that +1/10 can be used to estabilish religion, especialy with gold focused civ. I used to get around +8 with Marocco. With proper micromanagement (merchant specialists and gold tiles) you can squeeze even more from it. And gold focus helps you with building shrines and temples.

 

[Funak]

By then you probably have another civ's religion and your pantheon does nothing.

It depends. It is quite possible to get a religion anyways, but you have to luck out quite a lot. Ruins, religious city-state quests, a lot of cities and killing a whole lot of barbs with your pictish . Also some games the AI don't really care about religion.

 

[void_genesis]

Just did a day of playtesting the new 8.4 pantheons for the celts on standard communitas map at warlord level. I rolled a good start, lots of amber and a sugar on the northwest corner of the continent. A nearby inland spot had two amber and some wheat and a lake. Another southern location was coastal desert with an incense and lots of wheat. Some northern coastal locations to the east had an amber and pearl, and another further just an amber with some iron. As I went through the plays I always built a shrine first in new cities, then focused on whatever would help my pantheon generate more faith. There was also a religious CS to my northwest that I could reliably bust a barb camp for just after choosing a pantheon at turn 34. As I continued replaying from the pantheon choice I got better at optimal settling and exploring, so there is a bias to better play in the latter choices. I recorded the turn I popped a great prophet. Most games I managed to get the hanging gardens and great library, often a couple of other wonders.

Bran- T90 great prophet. (projected from T76 based on current faith per turn (fpt)....had a render error)
Cernunnos- locked three forest tiles to work in my capital to give 4 fpt. Settled northern forested locations first. T88 great prophet.
Dagda- T95 great prophet
Epona- At turn 81 I only had 172 faith accumulated and 4fpt when I struck a render error again. This seems to be by far the weakest choice. If I recall it doesnt give anything if you purchase tiles....maybe that would make it viable.
Lugh- I struck a random ruin for 90 faith at T42, but subtracting that out I would have hit a great prophet at T 102 after getting hanging gardens at T77 and great library at T93.
Mannan- T72 great prophet.
Morrigan- Got pictish warriors earlier at T63 this time and went barb hunting all over the map, getting 10 faith for brutes and 13 for axemen. T90 great prophet.
Nuada- T106 great prophet but was only getting 1 faith from 13 gold at that point, so I think this result was from more optimal settling and getting an amber monopoly sooner.
Ogma- T102 great prophet. I focused on food to build population faster.
Rhiannon- T72 great prophet with only 3 cities.

So all in all there is quite a difference in their strength, though that would vary with situation and gameplay. Epona seems to be the weakest by far, and Nuada is still poor due to the low gold in the early game. I'm fine with the idea of some being risky in the early game but potentially very powerful in the late game.

One final idea. Would it be possible to allow the celts to retain their pantheon belief even if another religion takes over their cities in the future? This would make the problem of being forced to get a religion a non-issue. It is a bit historic too with celts retaining a link to their ancient pagan beliefs even after Christianity appeared.

 

[Gazebo]

Just did a day of playtesting the new 8.4 pantheons for the celts on standard communitas map at warlord level. I rolled a good start, lots of amber and a sugar on the northwest corner of the continent. A nearby inland spot had two amber and some wheat and a lake. Another southern location was coastal desert with an incense and lots of wheat. Some northern coastal locations to the east had an amber and pearl, and another further just an amber with some iron. As I went through the plays I always built a shrine first in new cities, then focused on whatever would help my pantheon generate more faith. There was also a religious CS to my northwest that I could reliably bust a barb camp for just after choosing a pantheon at turn 34. As I continued replaying from the pantheon choice I got better at optimal settling and exploring, so there is a bias to better play in the latter choices. I recorded the turn I popped a great prophet. Most games I managed to get the hanging gardens and great library, often a couple of other wonders.

Bran- T90 great prophet. (projected from T76 based on current faith per turn (fpt)....had a render error)
Cernunnos- locked three forest tiles to work in my capital to give 4 fpt. Settled northern forested locations first. T88 great prophet.
Dagda- T95 great prophet
Epona- At turn 81 I only had 172 faith accumulated and 4fpt when I struck a render error again. This seems to be by far the weakest choice. If I recall it doesnt give anything if you purchase tiles....maybe that would make it viable.
Lugh- I struck a random ruin for 90 faith at T42, but subtracting that out I would have hit a great prophet at T 102 after getting hanging gardens at T77 and great library at T93.
Mannan- T72 great prophet.
Morrigan- Got pictish warriors earlier at T63 this time and went barb hunting all over the map, getting 10 faith for brutes and 13 for axemen. T90 great prophet.
Nuada- T106 great prophet but was only getting 1 faith from 13 gold at that point, so I think this result was from more optimal settling and getting an amber monopoly sooner.
Ogma- T102 great prophet. I focused on food to build population faster.
Rhiannon- T72 great prophet with only 3 cities.

So all in all there is quite a difference in their strength, though that would vary with situation and gameplay. Epona seems to be the weakest by far, and Nuada is still poor due to the low gold in the early game. I'm fine with the idea of some being risky in the early game but potentially very powerful in the late game.

One final idea. Would it be possible to allow the celts to retain their pantheon belief even if another religion takes over their cities in the future? This would make the problem of being forced to get a religion a non-issue. It is a bit historic too with celts retaining a link to their ancient pagan beliefs even after Christianity appeared.

Great feedback, thanks. I'll buff epona a bit to help it along.

Overall, aside from faith, did the pantheons feel powerful enough to carry the UA?
G

 

[Funak]

Great feedback, thanks. I'll buff epona a bit to help it along.

Overall, aside from faith, did the pantheons feel powerful enough to carry the UA?
G

Actually tried out Epona as well, and even going heavy might and doing a lot of barbhunting it seemed extremely weak. Have yet to try it with tradition however, but I assume that would actually be weaker.


I feel like Epona currently have two major problems. First of all it provides less faith per turn than the religious settlements pantheon (same faith per border-expand but that one actually has a border expand bonus as well), second of all I just feel like religious settlements is still way too weak, border-expansion slows down A LOT after the first 2 tiles, even with might or tradition as well as heavy culture focus, and getting 5 faith every 35 turns just isn't a very good deal.