It would have a bonus on forest sooner than lumbermill to help working with forests, for example +1 production on forge
The Celts
- Thread starter Gazebo
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It would have a bonus on forest sooner than lumbermill to help working with forests, for example +1 production on forge
It would have a bonus on forest sooner than lumbermill to help working with forests, for example +1 production on forge
No no no, clearly mines needed that production more, I mean 7 production iron-tiles in classical era is fine. Who wants to work forests anyways?
The Celts, The iroquois, ...
callmewoof
Warlord
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After playing a few Celtic games in the past week, both before and after the +5 Faith UA, I must say I love the changes. Yes, they are different to play. You MUST adapt. You can't just play them like a civ who picks a plantation pantheon and gets 10 banana cities. But the +5 faith makes them a real contender for getting a religion. Not always (at least in my deity games), but often enough if I shoot for it. The same can be said of almost any civ (you can get it 70% of the time on deity if you plan it, 100% if playing a super magic faith CIV).
I really enjoyed the different effect of the self-contained religion. I found myself picking different beliefs than I normally would. I had cities next door to a holy city that was pumping out 80+ pressure to everything else BUT mine. Good times.
I really enjoyed the different effect of the self-contained religion. I found myself picking different beliefs than I normally would. I had cities next door to a holy city that was pumping out 80+ pressure to everything else BUT mine. Good times.
I think the main reason was to spit in the face of Theodora, to be honest
Yeah, if anyone really needs to found a religion to utilise their UA, it's Byzantium. The power of the Celtic UA lies in their pantheon, not religion, and they already have the tools to preserve it. Then, of course, Byzantium has the free great prophet at philosophy, but it doesn't guarantee a religion in all cases.
callmewoof
Warlord
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The Celts needed the 5 faith to round themselves out. While they have awesome pantheons, you'll always have a civ get some Uber desert start and pantheon or pastures etc. So while you have your niche pantheon, they are rolling +25 faith/culture with 3 cities. You had no real chance to compete with that. Celts do benefit from a religion too, you know.
And fwiw, I mentioned that I play on deity simply because the game plays differently. If someone plays settler, their opinion on balance is just as valid as someone who plays deity, and vice-versa. But it helps from a design standpoint to know which end of the spectrum said opinion is coming from.
And fwiw, I mentioned that I play on deity simply because the game plays differently. If someone plays settler, their opinion on balance is just as valid as someone who plays deity, and vice-versa. But it helps from a design standpoint to know which end of the spectrum said opinion is coming from.
Strigvir
Emperor
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You meant "to get a religion on Deity". Tradition + Pantheon + Pictish Warriors give more than enough faith to start a religion, and most situationally OP pantheons will take 2-3 slots at most on the biggest map.
Thanks, capt. Obvious.
Of course it plays differently, because Deity was "upgraded" to vanilla levels due to people whining it's 2easy. And you getting a religion on the difficulty, at which you shouldn't get anything at all, is a clear sign Celts should be nerfed.
callmewoof
Warlord
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Your opinion is valid. As a bonus, if my posts help you take out real life issues in a safe manner, I'm glad to have helped.
Captain Obvious over and out.If you want to compare theoretical extremities the Celts pretty much win out every time anyways. They have pantheon-options giving 4 yields per 3 citizens, 1 faith per forest, 10 yields per city and so on.
They also get extra yields for every great work, a number that increased dramatically in the last versions.
They also have a special little snowflake unique rule that allows them to avoid sharing their (overpowered) pantheon with their neighbors.
Theodora on the other hand only gets an extra belief, something that only kicks in after she actually founds a religion. She has a lot more choices here when it comes to the extra belief, but since she isn't allowed to pick celtish unique beliefs, all of her options end up worse than getting 4 yields per 3 citizens.
If she somehow manages to found a religion, the game does nothing to 'protect her UA' by allowing her to keep her bonus belief to herself, and she is forced to spread it to keep pressure down.
Here lies the main issue with the change, first of all I've never set the Celts not get the first religion, well before I(or them) gets to philosophy. 5 faith per turn is crazy, it pretty much blows the Stonehenge, which by itself pretty much guarantees a religion pre-philosophy, out the window.
So if you're in a game on let's say a small map with standard number of players in it, one is the Celts, one is Theodora. The Celts and whomever founds the Stonehenge are going to get religions, guaranteed. Also anyone in that situation you were talking about earlier or any civ with an early-game bonus like Ethiopia, the mongols or India is going to be a hot contended for that last religion before philosophy. This leaves Theo relying on getting the Stonehenge or an overpowered start to even stand a chance.
Further on, if both civs actually fails to get a religion, the Celts are still going to have their boost to great works, and they are still going to have the ablity to choose which existing religion to use, since they have that anti pressure bonus.
They are also going to end up getting a lot of use out of their pantheon before all their cities gets converted.
While Theodora gets a free holy-site (which pretty much gives you the same 5 fpt as the celtish UA) at philosophy and other that that a hot slice of nothing.
In summary:
The Celts gets a stronger(if less diverse) effect than Theodora from their special belief if both of them found a religion.
The Celts are ALWAYS going to found a religion before Theodora, so if the situation gets sticky, the Celts will get a better chance to use their UA.
If neither of them founds a religion, the Celts still have some bonuses while Theo gets nothing.
All civs are equal, but some civs are more equal than others.
You mean a UA?
She has the ability to grab two founder beliefs, meaning two national wonders, with some pretty strong effects on them. If she gets a founder or an enhancer for her bonus, they aren't shared with other civs, so she can spread with reckless abandon. Since beliefs are generally much more powerful than they were in G&K, I'd say that Theodora is in a fine place, especially since the Basilica scales well and the Cataphract is an amazing unit for its cost and era. Both her UU and her UB are far better than Celtic equivalents.
Granted, both civs need a religion, the Celts for security and the Byzantines for, well, everything. That's the nature of most UAs situationally powerful, but also with weaknesses.
G
I mean a part of a UA, with 2 other huge parts
Well, two national wonders doesn't give her two reformation-beliefs, or two times the number of votes in the congress(at least I don't think so, I guess I could be wrong there). And without those two the wonders are pretty mediocre.
I mean sure, getting both GAP from spreading your religion as well as a bonus in your holy city during GA comboes up pretty well, but I wouldn't put that above the Celtic pantheons(I mean honestly, a double god-king pantheon...)
That is a fair point to bring up, I agree about the Cataphract, it is pretty amazing. It suffers from not upgrading at all, but I'm not going to take that discussion in mutliple threads at the same time, while the Pictish warrior suffers from just not having any interesting bonuses at all(something should probably be done about that one).
I'm not as sold on the UBs, the celtish one is really good, I'm not saying that the Basilica isn't, but I wouldn't call it 'far better'.
I'm just pointing out that your insistence that the Celts needs even more trainingwheels than they already get from their pantheon to secure a religion is an insult to Theo.
The +5 element of the Celtic UA may or may not remain, we'll see. Still in testing.
G
G
Buff their Pictish warrior, remove the +5 element, let them go barbhunting(or attack their neighbor) to guarantee the religion. Sounds fair, no?
That's the direction I've been leaning,yep. My current thought is to make Pictish warrior unlock at Mining (Pick-tish; Mining Picks; get it?) so that your Pantheon/religion setup can get online a little earlier.
G
I think a better idea would buffing the amount of faith they get from kills. 50% CS or whatever it is now just isn't very good.
Communitas also gave them double movement in hills(might have been instead of the %outside of territory bonus), and I think that makes more sense actually, I mean the picts were hilltribes, weren't they?
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