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the civil war in the usa 1861–1865, who's to blame PART 1

who's to blame

  • north

    Votes: 21 21.2%
  • south

    Votes: 68 68.7%
  • i'm a wimp and refuse to choose a side

    Votes: 10 10.1%

  • Total voters
    99
Can we please move past this idea that
Huh? Lincoln was quite consistent in terms of how he saw the South.

You could say that about a lot of Confederates. The answer is that, by and large, the country was not interested in executions that would add to the acrimony and bitterness that already existed.

Mobilizing the navy to blockade the south sounds more like the acts of a nation at war rather than an insurrection. Furthermore, reconstruction would not have been acceptable unless congress were treating the Confederates as a conquered foreign nation.

Who said anything about executions? I said Jefferson Davis was not even ever tried.
Francis Lieber was presented with evidence against Davis by the War Department and his response was, "Davis will not be found guilty and we shall stand there completely beaten".

John J. Clifford was the next attorney approached by the justice dept to prosecute Davis, but he withdrew saying he had "grave doubts" about the case. How could he have grave doubts if Davis were being tried as a traitor?

Richard Henry Dana was the next lawyer tapped by the government to prosecute Davis, but he too withdrew from the case.

Finally, Henry Stanburg, the new Attorney General, wouldn't touch the case.

Four of the North's brightest attorneys would not touch the case. Why? Perhaps because they did not think they could win? During this whole time Davis was offered a pardon which he refused because he said to accept it would be an admission of guilt.

The lack of a Davis trial & the harshness of reconstruction show me that the North acted not out of mercy, compassion, or worry of bitterness & acrimony. They acted in a politically expedient manner so that they could proceed to write the history of the war.

You can look at the example of Washington and the Whiskey Rebellion to see an example and precedent of mercy and forgiveness in order to avoid lingering animosity (or worsening).

No mercy was given. None.

Additionally, Lincoln nor his representatives ever met w/ any such delegation. He refused to acknowledge them.

Secretary of State Seward met with them.

Huh? By this definition all sides in all wars are at fault. I suppose you blame the US for WWII?

No, I blame the Japanese for our involvement.

They weren't "being raped". In fact, the #1 export by far was cotton. The problem is that southern culture eschewed any other occupations that would've helped them have more financial self-control. Most of their accountants, managers, etc... (generally called "factors" back then) were northerners. Not because of some evil northern plan but because southern society disdained this type of work and built an education and social system that largely prevented people from getting into these types of industry.

You have a well thought out post, but this is one area where you are incorrect. The USA charged tariffs on manufactured goods from England to help factories in the north compete. England then charged tariffs on their chief import from the USA, Cotton. Thus were the Southern states forced to finance the industrial growth of the north. They were in fact being financially raped.

Also to call the civil war the "War of Northern Aggression" is idiotic at best. Even if you are going to say the North started the war (which in all reality it shouldn't be called a war) it was solely putting down a rebellion. This is completely within the power of the federal government granted by the Constitution.
If they were just putting down a rebellion explain the legality of reconstruction & the events surrounding a lack of a trial for Jefferson Davis. How's that for idiotic, Sir?
 
Reading more closely, it says he was indicted. Nothing about a trial is mentioned. I think DM is probably more in the right here.

That said...

Another thing is that President Andrew Johnson (who followed Lincoln) had a personal hatred of the planter aristocracy, but rather than have them executed, he preferred they, essentially, grovel to him and he, in turn, granted pardons/amnesty/clemency to a great many Confederates.
 
Thus, you have to go by what the document says (which a couple people have done a nice job of) or by tradition and common sense (which I address a few posts up)


And the document is up for intepretation - hence the Supreme Court.
 
Mobilizing the navy to blockade the south sounds more like the acts of a nation at war rather than an insurrection. Furthermore, reconstruction would not have been acceptable unless congress were treating the Confederates as a conquered foreign nation.
At some point, there's a de facto reality that whatever you want to call the southern states you have to prepare for the what they are doing.
Who said anything about executions? I said Jefferson Davis was not even ever tried. Francis Lieber was presented with evidence against Davis by the War Department and his response was, "Davis will not be found guilty and we shall stand there completely beaten".
Its a good question. I wonder, had Lincoln lived, if this would've played out like this? As I noted in my other post, A Johnson was more interested in private humiliation than public trials. If the Chief Executive is warring with Congress (remember, AJ was impeached) then it makes such prosecutions pretty hard.
No mercy was given. None.
After the Whiskey Rebellion? Yes there was. Washington released one of the primary leaders and most of those found guilty of anything were trivial, and a couple were pardoned.

The men were imprisoned, where one died, while two, including Philip Vigol (later spelled Philip Wigal), were convicted of treason and sentenced to death by hanging. Washington, however, pardoned them on the grounds that one was a "simpleton," and the other, "insane."[7]

*bold mine

Source
Secretary of State Seward met with them.
Well, I stand to be corrected about some of the cabinet. If you have a source, I'd love to read it and learn more.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that simply demanding something doesn't make your side right. As you know the cops all the times meet w/ hostage takers and "hear their demands". Does that mean the hostage takers are credible (I'm not saying this is exactly apples to apples, but I hope you see my point)
You have a well thought out post, but this is one area where you are incorrect. The USA charged tariffs on manufactured goods from England to help factories in the north compete. England then charged tariffs on their chief import from the USA, Cotton. Thus were the Southern states forced to finance the industrial growth of the north. They were in fact being financially raped.
I'm not saying that nothing ever happened that gave more benefit to the north. Give and take is part of life and sometimes things favored the north, but more often than not, they favored the south.

The thing is its not some kind of evil northern conspiracy. It is the evolution of the economy (as foreseen by Hamilton some 70 years earlier). We were moving into a manufacturing age and, as the US had always done, we wanted protective tariffs to help young industry grow. By default, of course, those parts of the country that import more will bear more of a burden.

But, here, as in my reply to JohnHSOG, the problem was that the south did NOT want to develop industry. It was counter to their social values, traditions, and economic temperment.

Additionally, tariff policy had trended toward being more and more Southern friendly since the nadir of the "Tariff of Abominations" (ironically a tariff pushed secretly by the southerner Calhoun).

Finally, in 1857 the south got with the passage of an extremely friendly tariff. The 1857 tariff was put forth by a southern, passed by a southern-friendly Congress that didn't want to offend the south, and signed by a Southern-friendly president.

So, in 1860, when the south was leaving the Union they had the MOST FAVORABLE tariff they'd had in decades.

Now, in 1860, there was a higher tariff that was in consideration, but southerns killed it in the Senate. So, ironically, by leaving, this protectionist tariff then passed due to their absence. By quitting they screwed themselves.

Also, keep in mind that when the cotton trade is hurt, it also hurts northerners. The ships that carry the cotton, the men who sail them, and many of the accountants/managers are northern.

Another irony was that the south destroyed their own dominant world position in cotton by initiating the Civil War.
If they were just putting down a rebellion explain the legality of reconstruction & the events surrounding a lack of a trial for Jefferson Davis.
There's a de facto reality here. What else are you supposed to do when the war is over? One of this magnitude? You have to find a way to govern and try and "put Humpty Dumpty back together again". Reconstruction is a big mess because of the competition between Lincoln (and moreso Johnson) and the Radical Republicans. Once Lincoln was killed, the Radicals were able to push their agenda and they had a very different outlook toward the south and reconstruction than Lincoln had.
 
At some point, there's a de facto reality that whatever you want to call the southern states you have to prepare for the what they are doing.

Its a good question. I wonder, had Lincoln lived, if this would've played out like this? As I noted in my other post, A Johnson was more interested in private humiliation than public trials. If the Chief Executive is warring with Congress (remember, AJ was impeached) then it makes such prosecutions pretty hard.

The only thing the South prepared to do was leave the union. They had neither the means not desire to invade the north.

The fact that Johnson & the RR were fighting for control of Washington has little to do with them being uniform in wanting to prosecute Davis, why else would they have brought in 4 prosecutors before they gave up?

After the Whiskey Rebellion? Yes there was. Washington released one of the primary leaders and most of those found guilty of anything were trivial, and a couple were pardoned.
I could have been more clear. I was speaking of the war between the states.
Well, I stand to be corrected about some of the cabinet. If you have a source, I'd love to read it and learn more.
Start with The South Under Siege 1830-2000. If you dig hit me up with a PM & I will throw some more your way.
Finally, in 1857 the south got with the passage of an extremely friendly tariff. The 1857 tariff was put forth by a southern, passed by a southern-friendly Congress that didn't want to offend the south, and signed by a Southern-friendly president.

So, in 1860, when the south was leaving the Union they had the MOST FAVORABLE tariff they'd had in decades.
1. Of course the tariffs were being loosened. The north was industrializing & they didn't want to squeeze the south so hard that they left the union. Kind of how NY (this year) has lost revenue because the ultra rich are fleeing the city due to an oppressive tax burden.
2. The favorable tariff would mean nothing compared to the ruination they would face with an overnight end to slavery.

Also, keep in mind that when the cotton trade is hurt, it also hurts northerners. The ships that carry the cotton, the men who sail them, and many of the accountants/managers are northern.

Once Lincoln was killed, the Radicals were able to push their agenda and they had a very different outlook toward the south and reconstruction than Lincoln had.
Hell yes when the cotton trade was hurt it also hurt northerners, think of how bad it hurt them to have the whole industry pretty much leave. That is the true reason the north sought to force the south back in the union. Always follow the money & you'll get to the truth.

LOL, the RR were in a power struggle with Lincoln for years. Both of them wanted the power, end of story.

Nice talking with you, I have to run.
 
The Current Constitution does not seem to ban secession, but the Articles of Confederation did and I tend to think that it is reasonable to assume that provision remained unchanged. I don't think it is a good idea not to have an escape clause though.


I place most of the blame on the founding fathers for not including a method for peaceful secession in the constitution. I think leaving the union should be possible but difficult. It should require a plebiscite with a supermajority opting for leaving the union, not just a majority is a vote of the state legislature. Compensating the union for any federal property seized would also be required, but the union should not be able to hold them indefinitely while refusing negotiations.



I tend to agree with Lysander Spooner when it comes to the civil war. This radical abolitionist was one of the biggest supporters of the South's right to secede even though he despised most of what the Confederacy stood for. He said he would have supported a war to free the slaves (in fact, he had previously been a major backer of John Brown and others who tried to leave slave rebellions to free the slaves, overthrow the slave-supporting governments, and redistribute the property of slaveholder to the slaves), but saw the Republican party as corrupt an any interested in helping big business. He argued that the right of the south to fight for independence was derived form the natural right of a slave to fight and even kill his master to gain freedom. Not surprisingly, both sides of the civil war hated this argument.
 
The south basically rebelled and fired upon a Northern Fort. Obviously they started it, not the north.
 
If you want you could probably blame the French.
You would have to go back a ways, though.
 
Or their assistance in the Revolution, or their choosing Guadeloupe over Canada and removing the threat to the British colonies and much of their strategic value, etc...

Not saying it is really valid, but you can blame them :)
 
From what I know the North is to be blamed for war but war was justified.
 
I tend to agree with Lysander Spooner when it comes to the civil war. This radical abolitionist was one of the biggest supporters of the South's right to secede even though he despised most of what the Confederacy stood for. He said he would have supported a war to free the slaves (in fact, he had previously been a major backer of John Brown and others who tried to leave slave rebellions to free the slaves, overthrow the slave-supporting governments, and redistribute the property of slaveholder to the slaves), but saw the Republican party as corrupt an any interested in helping big business. He argued that the right of the south to fight for independence was derived form the natural right of a slave to fight and even kill his master to gain freedom. Not surprisingly, both sides of the civil war hated this argument.

Sounds like my kind of guy. The whole idea that the South had no right to secede is silly. If you go down that route the North should have subdued the South and then returned the united country back to the British Empire. The South gets the blame for starting the war for firing on Fort Sumter but, as they say, it takes two to tango and Lincoln could have avoided the war very easily if he had wanted to.
 
Sounds like my kind of guy. The whole idea that the South had no right to secede is silly. If you go down that route the North should have subdued the South and then returned the united country back to the British Empire. The South gets the blame for starting the war for firing on Fort Sumter but, as they say, it takes two to tango and Lincoln could have avoided the war very easily if he had wanted to.

Even if you accept the South had a right to secede, you're still stuck with the fact that they never made an attempt to secede within the existing legal framework. It's not on Lincoln that the South couldn't be bothered to even try to do it within the laws.
 
Even if you accept the South had a right to secede, you're still stuck with the fact that they never made an attempt to secede within the existing legal framework. It's not on Lincoln that the South couldn't be bothered to even try to do it within the laws.

Huh? First, the South certainly used the "existing legal framework." They said we don't want a be a part of this country anymore and left. Secondly, that has nothing to with starting a war.
 
If you go down that route the North should have subdued the South and then returned the united country back to the British Empire.
That would be if both British and American law were the same. States rights are far different from those of a colony of the British Empire.

As it is not mentioned it comes down to your interpretation:
Is it legal unless forbidden
or illegal unless unless specifically granted.

The fact that anything not mentioned in the constitution is the domain of the state government (unless I am mistaken here), and that secession is not mentioned in the constitution is a valid argument. There are also arguments against it as well, though.

Even if you accept the South had a right to secede, you're still stuck with the fact that they never made an attempt to secede within the existing legal framework.
What existing legal framework?
 
Huh? First, the South certainly used the "existing legal framework." They said we don't want a be a part of this country anymore and left. Secondly, that has nothing to with starting a war.

What alternate dimension is that an "existing legal framework" in? :crazyeye: It doesn't even slightly resemble the American Revolution, for example.
 
That would be if both British and American law were the same. States rights are far different from those of a colony of the British Empire.

I'm pretty sure that American colonies could not "legally" unilaterally secede from the British Empire. My point and that of Lysander Spooner and that of the Declaration of Independence is that government is only legitimate by the consent of the governed, dodgy interpretations of 200+ year old documents and the will of Kings notwithstanding.
 
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