The confessions of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

[Ayatollah So]

Personally I don't care what western ideals are based on. Its those arbitrary rules that has us losing this fight.

Western ideals are why there is an us in the first place.

We're not losing the fight against bin Laden's ilk. Immediately after 9/11, many major Arab leaders absolutely condemned the attack, even Moammar freakin' Khaddafy. The bungling of Western leaders in Iraq may keep bin Laden's recruiting offices busy for a while, but it will wear off eventually. And every suicide bombing means one less terrorist. Dry up the recruitment, and we win.

 

[Bamspeedy]

For what it is worth, even non-torture confessions can't always be trusted.

KSM admitted to being behind 9/11 'from A to Z'. I'm waiting for Mr Bush to send his apology card and some flowers to Uncle Ossy. Either that or to admit that this confession is nonsense.

What part of "it was an AL-KAY-DUH operation" do you fail to comprehend???? It doesn't matter if Osama or KSM claims credit for it, their whole organization was behind it.

You like to lump Bush and all of his administration together when laying blame for the Iraq War and other things, but you suddenly feel the need to isolate the blame to individuals instead of a group when the subject turns to Al-queda.

Are you going to send flowers and an apology to BUSH for accusing him of being behind 9/11 all these years? Didn't think so.

Most of his 'confessions' were not a surprise as he was suspected in the involvement in many of them for years (remember, many of these were just 'plots'. Someone can spend five minutes coming up with a plot on a bar napkin.) More than likely he is just listing off every Al-queda plot he could remember from all the years he worked in that organization. He probably wasn't directly involved in the full details of all of them, but he obviously was aware of some basic descriptions of the plots considering his rank in the organization.

but his confessions are totally worthless if made under torture.

Screamed out during torture to get the people to stop hurting you, yes. But that isn't what the list is from. He gave the list at the tribunal where he was under no pressure and was certainly not being tortured during his trial.

Forced confession by torture would get someone to say something like "yeah, I killed him".
But he said something like "And with my blessed right hand I cut off the head of the Jew, Daniel Pearl. You can see videos of me on the internet cutting off his head".

So no, he wasn't some random carpet salesman.

 

[Cheetah]

Screamed out during torture to get the people to stop hurting you, yes. But that isn't what the list is from. He gave the list at the tribunal where he was under no pressure and was certainly not being tortured during his trial.

How about he feared he would recieve more torture after the tribunal?

Now, I don't doubt that this guy is guilty. Almost everyone knows he is guilty. But we have no idea exactly what he is guilty of, because some idiots think we can get reliable answers by torturing people!

He is guilty, but because he was tortured his confession is worthless. If this is going to be used against him in a trial, we could just as well skip the entire trial and hang him up in the nearest tree right now!

 

[Xenocrates]

The guy was kept in prison for 4 years, that in itself is torture. Of course he's going to come out with a load of bull. It's silly because if the US pretends to believe the confession is credible then they won't attempt to find the real perps.

There's something in the press today that ties in with what Zen said:

The US Pentagon is examining allegations that David Hicks, the Australian detainee at Guantanamo Bay, was forcibly sedated last month.

Who knows what 'medication' they pumped into Mr Mohammed.

Remember the invasion of Grenada in 1983? Well the 17 guys that the US captured are still in jail now and have never been given a proper trial. Some of you guys weren't even born then to put this into perspective. In Mr Mohammed's mind is the belief that he will never be freed so why not talk a load of tripe?

http://www.spectrezine.org/weblog/?p=53

 

[nonconformist]

Ah...the old faceless 'sources'. Cant beat those for info can you?

ABC news: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

I'll have your concession in triplicate on my desk tomorrow morning.

 

[Xenocrates]

ABC news: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

I'll have your concession in triplicate on my desk tomorrow morning.

A man can drean Noncom, a man can dream....

This is what Paul Craig Roberts has to say on the subject:

Reading responses of BBC listeners to Mohammed's confession reveals that the rest of the world is either laughing at the US government for being so stupid as to think that anyone anywhere would believe the confession or damning the Bush regime for being like the Gestapo and KGB.

Humorists are having a field day with the confession: "'I'm a very dangerous mastermind,' said Mohammed, who confessed to the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, the Brink's robbery, St. Valentine's Day Massacre, and the Lincoln and McKinley assassinations. Mohammed also accepted responsibility for spreading hay fever and cold sores around the world and for rained out picnics."

The US a laughing stock? Whoooodathoughit!


http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03172007.html

 

[FriendlyFire]

His statements became part of the basis for the Bush administration claims that Iraq trained al Qaeda members to use biochemical weapons.

/sigh
in the Bush administrations scramble because of "time" fear of another terrorist cell. It looks like this was counterproductive.

 

[MobBoss]

ABC news: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866

I'll have your concession in triplicate on my desk tomorrow morning.

Actually, I am right on this one. Please note the story says Sources Say Agency's Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes to Death.

What part of 'sources say' is not utterly faceless?

Dont worry...your concession doesnt need to be on my desk to be recognized.

The guy was kept in prison for 4 years, that in itself is torture.

Huh? So putting someone in prison for a crime is tantamount to torture? Please.

 

[Azash]

It's wholly unreliable. Why should I believe anything that is most certain to have been revealed after torture?

 

[nonconformist]

Actually, I am right on this one. Please note the story says Sources Say Agency's Tactics Lead to Questionable Confessions, Sometimes to Death.

What part of 'sources say' is not utterly faceless?

The part that's generally accepted by the US government as reasonable cause to imprison people in Gitmo.

 

[El_Machinae]

The part that's generally accepted by the US government as reasonable cause to imprison people in Gitmo.

Er ... what?

 

[nonconformist]

Er ... what?

Questionable sources, in other words, Afghan warlords being paid thousands of dollars in bounty, are the primary evidence in a lot of Gitmo cases.

 

[MobBoss]

Questionable sources, in other words, Afghan warlords being paid thousands of dollars in bounty, are the primary evidence in a lot of Gitmo cases.

A nice, but very obvious diversion of the fact that the story does indeed use nameless sources.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[MobBoss]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,259244,00.html

Bit of an update for all the rose odonnel wannabes posting their symapthy for KSM. Wow. They had judges AND elected representatives present for the event. Imagine that.

 

[FriendlyFire]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,259244,00.html

Bit of an update for all the rose odonnel wannabes posting their symapthy for KSM. Wow. They had judges AND elected representatives present for the event. Imagine that.

Hmmm I wouldnt go that far. Though the timing of bring him to trail now during this prosecutor firing is suspicious. Ironicly Crew had pointed out karl roves invloment in firing a prosecutor investigating Jack abramoff.

back to the topic at hand though.
it will be interesting to see how this ultimetly dose play out. I remember clearly alberto gonzarles was asked if confessions obtained under torture can be used. He stuttered and in the end replied we cannot define what torture is yet.

KSM whom the US had several years of intell on is probably the least questionable most ovious choice to test this assertions.

The US has and still dose have the moral high ground when waging war against alqedea. which is vital for democracies when waging wars. This has to be juggled with the need for results. I find this rather symptomtic of the ineptness of the Bush administration the handling of which could have been done better.

 

[Bamspeedy]

How about he feared he would recieve more torture after the tribunal?

That argument seems kind of silly when he complains about the said torture at his trial. Wouldn't he fear more torture for complaining or mentioning the torture?

At least I give you credit that you still think this guy was evil so I will respect your other points. The only other thing I will say is we didn't need his 'confession' to prove he is guilty, so I don't care if his confession is not considered as evidence.

The guy was kept in prison for 4 years, that in itself is torture.

I can't believe you still have sympathy for this scumbag. So we should have offered him tea and let him sit in a Lay Z boy recliner and eat Cheezy poofs and then ask him "Oh, kind sir would you like to tell us about your organization's plans to kill us".

Of course he's going to come out with a load of bull. It's silly because if the US pretends to believe the confession is credible then they won't attempt to find the real perps.

I didn't hear any news that the US has stopped trying to find Al-queda members. Get it out of your head that only one terrorist could possibly be responsible for organizing 9/11.

Oh, that's right, the 'real perps' won't be found according to you until the blame is put on Mr. Bush.

There's something in the press today that ties in with what Zen said:

Who knows what 'medication' they pumped into Mr Mohammed.

More accusations with little to no details about the facts. Maybe, just maybe he was sedated because he was flipping out and doing harm to himself or others.

But, no lets look at what the other sources are saying:

Maj. Michael Mori [Wikipedia profile] said Hicks was given a drug to ease his complaints of stomach pain, but while the medicine took effect, a US official began speaking to him about additional charges that Hicks did not have the ability to comprehend.

To be fair I included the allegation that he did not have the ability to comprehend the charges against him, but this clearly smacks your silly 'forcibly sedated' claim. He is getting a lawyer anyways who can explain the charges to him.

Remember the invasion of Grenada in 1983? Well the 17 guys that the US captured are still in jail now and have never been given a proper trial. Some of you guys weren't even born then to put this into perspective. In Mr Mohammed's mind is the belief that he will never be freed so why not talk a load of tripe?

http://www.spectrezine.org/weblog/?p=53

Another no-name web blog?

His murder of Mr. Pearl is all the justification I need to want to see him hung by his balls from the nearest tree.

Either he possesses superhuman powers of self control, or he was largely innocent given that he beat the water-boarding average by an order of magnitude!

Or maybe he really believed in his cause?

When the US soldiers did the water-boarding on themselves what motivation did they have to try and hold out for a long time? Having the record for longest waterboarding? That's not enough motivation for someone to put themselves through that so they are going to wimp out very fast. I highly suspect those soldiers would have lasted a hell of alot longer than 14 seconds if it was the enemy performing the waterboarding on them trying to get them to reveal the location of their fellow soldiers for example.

 

[Xenocrates]

I don't have sympathy for any terrorists Bam whether they wear suits and ties or robes. What I'm saying is that if the purpose of capturing various people was to 'prove' their guilt it doesn't work when done like this. I'm also saying that allegations of enforced medication have been made in the Hicks case. I have no idea whether they are true, only that they have been made.

On the point of 4 years in jail not being torture, I think that it's 'due process' that's been lacking. I.e prove guilt first.

What happens when people are taken like this is that they realise that the capturers are never going to release them so the only way that they can 'win' is too mislead them. In Soviet Russia people used to name dead comrades as conspirators and then make up names. When they could think of no more they admit guilt in order to confound the interorgators. Their lives become impossible so they sacrifice themselves; the guilty as well as the innocent.

We've let the veil slip here. For a century the West has conned the World into thinking that we were lawful and rational. Who can believe that now?

Are you disputing that the peope kidnapped during the invasion of Grenada are still in prison Bam?

 

[Bamspeedy]

On the point of 4 years in jail not being torture, I think that it's 'due process' that's been lacking. I.e prove guilt first.

"Ok, Mr. KMS, you have been found guilty and are sentenced to death. Oh, BTW, would you like to tell us about any plots your organization may be planning to kill us with?"

It is more important to get the information about the plots from him first.

Are you disputing that the peope kidnapped during the invasion of Grenada are still in prison Bam?

Certainly not. That can't be disputed. What can be disputed is if they received a fair trial and if they deserve to be there. And besides you would need to address this to the Grenada government, not the US. They aren't in US prisons.

 

[Quiet Sound]

It's possible after being in captivity for a few years, he got the names of his targets/plots a little mixed up.

Neither the transcript you posted earlier nor the section presented in the SeattlePi link say "a plaza bank." Would have been nice if this had been subjected to some fact-checking eh? But that probably would have demolished the whole thing.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Neither the transcript you posted earlier nor the section presented in the SeattlePi link say "a plaza bank." Would have been nice if this had been subjected to some fact-checking eh? But that probably would have demolished the whole thing.

Buried on page 18 of the transcript is the claim that Mohammed's terrorists planned to hit a "Plaza Bank" in Washington state during the second wave of attacks after Sept. 11. The transcript gives no further details.

I would think if he was talking about THE Plaza Bank he would have said 'THE'. What he stated was vague, it could be interpreted to mean several things. The fact that you stated that the building didn't exist by that name before his capture either means that:
1. He is making it up (which I had admitted he probably did claim some things he didn't do).
2. He got the names mixed up, like I stated.
3. It was his way of shortening up the name of the other bank.

Using that one claim of his to claim he is totally innocent is absurd.