The Conquest Training Game
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
Nice going.
I think we should make peace (an extra city is good to sign in). It's not a problem to declare war between a peace time. Moving the troops into the border bevor declaring war counts harder on diplomatic. But our goal is warmongering (conquest or domination win), so i would'nt count much on diplomatic.
A reason for a short peace period is the fact that our ways are goona be longer. It means that we need more time to transfer our units to the front line. At this period we can build up more attacking forces and collect them at the enemie border.
I think we should make peace (an extra city is good to sign in). It's not a problem to declare war between a peace time. Moving the troops into the border bevor declaring war counts harder on diplomatic. But our goal is warmongering (conquest or domination win), so i would'nt count much on diplomatic.
A reason for a short peace period is the fact that our ways are goona be longer. It means that we need more time to transfer our units to the front line. At this period we can build up more attacking forces and collect them at the enemie border.
Good turns FF.
I'm afraid I have to bow out of this training game as my other commitments (ie Fiance!) are protesting about my civ time. I'll still follow the thread and will probably still ask dumb questions but I won't be able to play my turns.
Thanks for all the effort put into this so far
Mabellino
I'm afraid I have to bow out of this training game as my other commitments (ie Fiance!) are protesting about my civ time. I'll still follow the thread and will probably still ask dumb questions but I won't be able to play my turns.
Thanks for all the effort put into this so far
Mabellino
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Ok finnish up my turns.
1025
Peace - Akkard - 28 gold
Shanghai - horse
Can trade gold for techs. Decide not for the moment.
Leave tax at 100%. Too far behind to do research will have to buy techs.
Akkard - zero production - have to get a unit there. (7 turns)
1000 BC
Nanking - barracks - build-spear
MM Beijin
begin Massing troops at strategic locations.
975 Bc
HangChow Built
Using Horse to form wall to block Bablyons settler.
Canton - change Build - Spear>Horse
Shanghai - change build -Spear>Horse
950BC
Beijin Settler in 1 MM - make 2 taxmen
Babylon settler diverted from our borders
Can Trade Gold for techs.
Can upgrade Warriors to swords (waste of gold)
Final Thoughts
Mass forces to take Babyon. Should take 7 horsemen to be on the safe side.
Mass forces to take Ellipi the 5 horsemen should be surfficient
Trade for Poly then Monarchy
Bablyon has Pyramids
1025
Peace - Akkard - 28 gold
Shanghai - horse
Can trade gold for techs. Decide not for the moment.
Leave tax at 100%. Too far behind to do research will have to buy techs.
Akkard - zero production - have to get a unit there. (7 turns)
1000 BC
Nanking - barracks - build-spear
MM Beijin
begin Massing troops at strategic locations.
975 Bc
HangChow Built
Using Horse to form wall to block Bablyons settler.
Canton - change Build - Spear>Horse
Shanghai - change build -Spear>Horse
950BC
Beijin Settler in 1 MM - make 2 taxmen
Babylon settler diverted from our borders
Can Trade Gold for techs.
Can upgrade Warriors to swords (waste of gold)
Final Thoughts
Mass forces to take Babyon. Should take 7 horsemen to be on the safe side.
Mass forces to take Ellipi the 5 horsemen should be surfficient
Trade for Poly then Monarchy
Bablyon has Pyramids
Attachments
)
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
Should we wait on ainwoods explanations or not? If not, it's yours berrern, maballino can't play.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
Don't wait for me either. Again, my apologies. I may have an opportunity tonight since my trip has been lengthened by a day, whilst everyone else goes home for the weekend. :shakehead
So I will try to play tonight, and I'll be turning my underpants inside out tomorrow. I'd stay up wind of Cologne tomorrow if anyone lives near there.
So I will try to play tonight, and I'll be turning my underpants inside out tomorrow. I'd stay up wind of Cologne tomorrow if anyone lives near there.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
wouldnt it be better just to buy a pair ? Just in case you get killed or something you'll want clean undies
or worse you'll make it on international TV somehow. Oh the shame
delurk
Allow me to share some of my thoughts:
Allow me to share some of my thoughts:
- I would NOT have signed peace. Bowmen are great feed for horsemen. We had 2 elites and I would have aimed at getting an early Great Leader.
- Ainwood IMHO left out a very important part in his war tutorial: mobility. Whenever you go to war, have enough workers (3 or better 6) to build roads for bringing in your enforcements.
- You made a real real big mistake in not monitoring when the AIs learned map making. This definitely is the most important trading round in the Ancient Times (see Moonsinger's Trading Training thread) because the AIs value maps and you usually can get all techs and all money, if you trade the same turn!
- Embassies: you have plenty of cash, but no embassies. Establish them at least with some key civs: Greece, France, Babylon, Aztecs. Note that maps are cheaper once you have an embassy, because the embassy gives you the map of the capital region.
- There are a lot of different techs available among the civs and there are great brokering opportunities. Use them!
- You have way way too few workers!
- I looked at a city screen and noticed it used the governor. That is an absolute nono, if you want to have a good game!
- Beijing has 2 taxmen: another absolute nono. Your pop will drop needlessly (absolut disater) when you build the settler next turn, and you would get the same money by working tiles!
- Whenever you have unconnected cities (Akkad, Hangchow) you should build warriors and nothing else (unless you are in dire risk of being attacked). There is no cheaper way to get military police and once you are monarchy, you can use 3 mp per city.
- The Akkad clown should be changed to a specialist!
- If you want to continue the war path (I think you should), you should build barracks before units (e.g. Xinjian).
- The "folly" of building spears and not horsemen IMHO was already widely addressed. You want to conquer the world, and horses will upgrade to knights. No spears!
- Of course, check each turn whether the AIs are willing to sell workers. Always buy them!
delurk 2
Now I looked at the 1175BC save and noticed quite a number of things already at that time:
There is 40% lux plus a clown in Shanghai and that is not necessary. Lux is used to prevent cities from rioting, not to make citizens happy (unless you want to trigger wltkd, but let's skip that for now). Setting 0% lux increases our income from +7gpt to +17gpt. The clown is made a taxman giving +1gpt. This is acceptable, because we need to do it in Shanghai only; if we would need several specialists/clowns, we should increase luxury tax, because growth and production is far more important than money in the early game.
Nanking should work the mined wines, not the fish since this doubles production.
Tsingtao switched to barracks, because we want vet units.
Xinjian switched to warrior from spear; cheaper, upgradable to sword.
Then I make the following trades:
Aztecs give 17g for wm.
Greece gives map making for wm, 7gpt, 65g.
Germany gives polytheism for map making, wm, 1gpt, 8g.
Greece gives 84g, wm for polytheism.
Babylon gives wm, 10g for wm.
France gives wm, 4g for wm.
Rome gives wm, 10g for wm.
Aztecs give wm, 14g for wm.
Germany gives wm for wm, 1g.
Rome gives 2g for wm.
Aztecs give 2g for wm.
And now for the more risky way of peace re-negotiation. In the F3 screen, you can check the relative strength vs. the other civs. "Same" means +-20% the same, otherwise it is weak or strong.
Germany, France, and Aztecs are weak wrt us and thus I cancel the active peace deal, ignore the advisor and make new deals:
Germany gives 51g for peace.
Aztecs give 40g for peace.
No need to work on France, since they have nothing to deprive them off.
In fact, it might have been even better to include the peace re-negotiation in the initial deal with Germany, but I didn't think of it in time.
(Note: Once you call the deal, there is no way back. If you miscalculate you position, or the other civ is aggressive enough, you will have to pay or you are at war!)
Then we switch the taxman into a scientist and start minimum research on literature; a very long shot, but we may succeed.
Thus pre-turn we go from 58g, +7gpt to 218g, +8gpt, learn polytheism and map making and the map of the known world.
lurk
Now I looked at the 1175BC save and noticed quite a number of things already at that time:
There is 40% lux plus a clown in Shanghai and that is not necessary. Lux is used to prevent cities from rioting, not to make citizens happy (unless you want to trigger wltkd, but let's skip that for now). Setting 0% lux increases our income from +7gpt to +17gpt. The clown is made a taxman giving +1gpt. This is acceptable, because we need to do it in Shanghai only; if we would need several specialists/clowns, we should increase luxury tax, because growth and production is far more important than money in the early game.
Nanking should work the mined wines, not the fish since this doubles production.
Tsingtao switched to barracks, because we want vet units.
Xinjian switched to warrior from spear; cheaper, upgradable to sword.
Then I make the following trades:
Aztecs give 17g for wm.
Greece gives map making for wm, 7gpt, 65g.
Germany gives polytheism for map making, wm, 1gpt, 8g.
Greece gives 84g, wm for polytheism.
Babylon gives wm, 10g for wm.
France gives wm, 4g for wm.
Rome gives wm, 10g for wm.
Aztecs give wm, 14g for wm.
Germany gives wm for wm, 1g.
Rome gives 2g for wm.
Aztecs give 2g for wm.
And now for the more risky way of peace re-negotiation. In the F3 screen, you can check the relative strength vs. the other civs. "Same" means +-20% the same, otherwise it is weak or strong.
Germany, France, and Aztecs are weak wrt us and thus I cancel the active peace deal, ignore the advisor and make new deals:
Germany gives 51g for peace.
Aztecs give 40g for peace.
No need to work on France, since they have nothing to deprive them off.
In fact, it might have been even better to include the peace re-negotiation in the initial deal with Germany, but I didn't think of it in time.
(Note: Once you call the deal, there is no way back. If you miscalculate you position, or the other civ is aggressive enough, you will have to pay or you are at war!)
Then we switch the taxman into a scientist and start minimum research on literature; a very long shot, but we may succeed.
Thus pre-turn we go from 58g, +7gpt to 218g, +8gpt, learn polytheism and map making and the map of the known world.
lurk
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
Thanks tao for you help. You've told us some very great points.
And now you can see why we are playing an Training game.
@Berrern: it's your turn, mabellino can't play.
And now you can see why we are playing an Training game.
@Berrern: it's your turn, mabellino can't play.
IMHO the most important tasks in the early game are clever trading and optimized growth. And you achieve optimized growth by building workers, which even thou they are a short term pop decrease, are a tremendeous long time asset. Preferably, you never work an un-improved tile. (Thus checking each turn all AIs for available workers is a good idea. Always buy! Unless you consider this exploitive, because it severely cripples the AIs.) And you need granaries in high food cities. Doing this good is what seperated the human player from the AI.
PS: One more thought crossed my mind: bowmen are Babylon's UU. If a bowman scored a victory (including succcessful defense, excluding capturing/destroying defenseless units), Babylon is its Golden Age. In the next 20 turns, its strength will increase much more than normal. Think of this, when you go to war again.
PS: One more thought crossed my mind: bowmen are Babylon's UU. If a bowman scored a victory (including succcessful defense, excluding capturing/destroying defenseless units), Babylon is its Golden Age. In the next 20 turns, its strength will increase much more than normal. Think of this, when you go to war again.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2001
- Messages
- 30,080
I'll add some screenshots later:
Firstly, thanks for the insights, Tao. Don't be too hard on them for missing the
odd specific thing here and there though, because this is a thread in which they can
play and pick up these things as they go along. We are trying to cover specific
themes as they arise, and trading (as an example) is something we haven't got to
yet. You mentioned mobility, and that's the focus of this note:
Executing the attack: Horsemen blitzkreig
In the previous article, we talked about some of the issues that should be
considered when you are planning ahead to formulate an attack strategy. In our
game, we've decided that the Babylonians have to go, and that horsemen should form
the core of our army. As such, we've been concentrating on building vet horsemen
into a sizeable attack force. So what else do we need to consider before we charge
across the plains towards babylon?
Strengths and weaknesses of horsemen
In having horsemen as our weapon of choice, we need to recognise their strengths and
weaknesses. Lets look at the unit stats:
The point is quite clear: Horses are moderately useful on the attack (especially
given the 2 movement points that can allow them to retreat), but poor on the
defence. The raw numbers may not be as useful to you as expected combat results, so
I chucked some numbers into a combat calculator (look in the creation &
customisation forum for one -> I used BomberEscorts version for this, but CivLackey
has made a good in-game one).
With a vet horseman attacking a regular spearman on flat terrain in a city, it
calculates the following:
Now: What happens is a pesky bab archer can be allowed to attack our horse:
Or even a warrior attacks!
All of these odds were worked-out assuming that we have vet horses up against
regular warriors / archers. Incidentally, this is a good time to demonstrate the
value of vet units: The same calculations if we had used regular horsemen:
We attack:
Babylon archer attacks our (reg) horse:
Warrior attacks:
As you can see, attacking cities defended by spearman with horsemen provides you
with a pretty-good chance of winning. However, you need to be careful to ensure
that you don't allow counter-attacks to decimate your army. So what can you do?
Firstly, you can move defensive units (spearman) with your horses. Howeve I do
not recommend this! Why? The reason is not that the spearman will provide a
good defensive capability; instead it is because you really lose a lot of the
benefits of having a fast, mobile attack force.
The spearman only provides a benefit if you are being counter-attacked. The secret
behind a good horseman strategy is to work to reduce the likelihood (opportunity)
for this to happen! How do you achieve this?
To limit the opportunity for the AI to counterattack, you need to take advantage of
the terrain and attack in force. In a nutshell - try not to leave your horsemen on
a square that the AI can attack the next turn. For example, if you need to take two
turns to attack a given city (due to the size of its cultural border), you are
better to end your first turn two-tiles away from the city, away from a road. If
you end the turn next to the city, then any AI attacking units in the city can
attack you. If you end the turn on a square next to a road, the AI can move down
the road to attack you.
>From our game, to attack babylon will require an initial move into Bab territory,
>and only on the second turn can we attack. In the first turn, a move of only one
>tile is the best option, as it leaves you out of range of any AI counter-attack,
>yet leaves babylon in-range of an attack the next turn. If you can find defense
>terrain to move onto (mountain, hills, even forest), then do it!
The second point in avoiding counterattacks is to ensure that you take a city on the
first turn of attack. If you don't think you have enough forces to take the city in
a given turn, then wait and regroup. The reason for this is that if you fail to
take the city, then you open yourself up for counterattack (as stated before), but
this is exacerbated by the fact that the AI also control the territory. If they
have roads to move down, then they will do so, especially towards a city under
attack, and they will also tend to draft units in a city that has had a defender
removed (something they may not do in a city that hasn't been attacked).
When you capture the city, controlling the cultural boundary also provides you with
an added advantage: Often, the AI likes to counterattack a city that you've
captured (whilst they still have attacking units). To do this, they will be moving
through your territory! That means that they can't run down a road and
attack you; instead they run down the road and stop next to 'your' city! For
exactly the same reason as I cautioned against ending your turn next to a city, this
is their weakness: You can counterattack the next turn. The other beauty about
counterattacking using fast units is that when you win, you can move back to the
city and let them come at you again.
This is actually a nice tactic to use when attacking a civ that is slightly superior
to you: They will always try and counterattack, and if they are doing it with
'slow' units, then you can use a mix of fast units and cannons/catapults/artillery
to whittle-them-down.
Firstly, thanks for the insights, Tao. Don't be too hard on them for missing the
odd specific thing here and there though, because this is a thread in which they can
play and pick up these things as they go along. We are trying to cover specific
themes as they arise, and trading (as an example) is something we haven't got to
yet. You mentioned mobility, and that's the focus of this note:
Executing the attack: Horsemen blitzkreig
In the previous article, we talked about some of the issues that should be
considered when you are planning ahead to formulate an attack strategy. In our
game, we've decided that the Babylonians have to go, and that horsemen should form
the core of our army. As such, we've been concentrating on building vet horsemen
into a sizeable attack force. So what else do we need to consider before we charge
across the plains towards babylon?
Strengths and weaknesses of horsemen
In having horsemen as our weapon of choice, we need to recognise their strengths and
weaknesses. Lets look at the unit stats:
- Attack strength: 2
- Defence strength: 1
- Moves: 2
The point is quite clear: Horses are moderately useful on the attack (especially
given the 2 movement points that can allow them to retreat), but poor on the
defence. The raw numbers may not be as useful to you as expected combat results, so
I chucked some numbers into a combat calculator (look in the creation &
customisation forum for one -> I used BomberEscorts version for this, but CivLackey
has made a good in-game one).
With a vet horseman attacking a regular spearman on flat terrain in a city, it
calculates the following:
- Horseman wins: 59.7%
- Spearman wins: 28.0 %
- Horseman retreats: 12.3%
Now: What happens is a pesky bab archer can be allowed to attack our horse:
- Horseman wins: 35.5%
- Archer wins: 47.6 %
- Horseman retreats: 16.8%
Or even a warrior attacks!
- Horseman wins: 68.9%
- Warrior wins: 23.5 %
- Horseman retreats: 7.6%
All of these odds were worked-out assuming that we have vet horses up against
regular warriors / archers. Incidentally, this is a good time to demonstrate the
value of vet units: The same calculations if we had used regular horsemen:
We attack:
- Horseman wins: 43.4%
- Spearman wins: 36.4 %
- Horseman retreats: 20.3%
Babylon archer attacks our (reg) horse:
- Horseman wins: 23.0 %
- Archer wins: 48.8 %
- Horseman retreats: 28.2%
Warrior attacks:
- Horseman wins: 52.0%
- Warrior wins: 30.7 %
- Horseman retreats: 17.3 %
As you can see, attacking cities defended by spearman with horsemen provides you
with a pretty-good chance of winning. However, you need to be careful to ensure
that you don't allow counter-attacks to decimate your army. So what can you do?
Firstly, you can move defensive units (spearman) with your horses. Howeve I do
not recommend this! Why? The reason is not that the spearman will provide a
good defensive capability; instead it is because you really lose a lot of the
benefits of having a fast, mobile attack force.
The spearman only provides a benefit if you are being counter-attacked. The secret
behind a good horseman strategy is to work to reduce the likelihood (opportunity)
for this to happen! How do you achieve this?
To limit the opportunity for the AI to counterattack, you need to take advantage of
the terrain and attack in force. In a nutshell - try not to leave your horsemen on
a square that the AI can attack the next turn. For example, if you need to take two
turns to attack a given city (due to the size of its cultural border), you are
better to end your first turn two-tiles away from the city, away from a road. If
you end the turn next to the city, then any AI attacking units in the city can
attack you. If you end the turn on a square next to a road, the AI can move down
the road to attack you.
>From our game, to attack babylon will require an initial move into Bab territory,
>and only on the second turn can we attack. In the first turn, a move of only one
>tile is the best option, as it leaves you out of range of any AI counter-attack,
>yet leaves babylon in-range of an attack the next turn. If you can find defense
>terrain to move onto (mountain, hills, even forest), then do it!
The second point in avoiding counterattacks is to ensure that you take a city on the
first turn of attack. If you don't think you have enough forces to take the city in
a given turn, then wait and regroup. The reason for this is that if you fail to
take the city, then you open yourself up for counterattack (as stated before), but
this is exacerbated by the fact that the AI also control the territory. If they
have roads to move down, then they will do so, especially towards a city under
attack, and they will also tend to draft units in a city that has had a defender
removed (something they may not do in a city that hasn't been attacked).
When you capture the city, controlling the cultural boundary also provides you with
an added advantage: Often, the AI likes to counterattack a city that you've
captured (whilst they still have attacking units). To do this, they will be moving
through your territory! That means that they can't run down a road and
attack you; instead they run down the road and stop next to 'your' city! For
exactly the same reason as I cautioned against ending your turn next to a city, this
is their weakness: You can counterattack the next turn. The other beauty about
counterattacking using fast units is that when you win, you can move back to the
city and let them come at you again.
This is actually a nice tactic to use when attacking a civ that is slightly superior
to you: They will always try and counterattack, and if they are doing it with
'slow' units, then you can use a mix of fast units and cannons/catapults/artillery
to whittle-them-down.
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
Very nice writeup ainwood.
But it looks like that FriendlyFire and I are the only ones who stay at this game. I think we should search three new members. I would even terminate this game with a win.
But it looks like that FriendlyFire and I are the only ones who stay at this game. I think we should search three new members. I would even terminate this game with a win.
schmiddi
Prussian
Except for the upcoming weekend, I'd be able ready and willing to join.
Mauer
Pompous Noble
I'm still here. Just haven't said much. Ainwood your write ups are very helpful. If you want Detlef you can go ahead and take the next sav.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Ancient Era combat isnt all that hard.
I have generally been skittish of AA wars. since I seem to come off worse.
What a difference having Barracks makes.
Wow thats some aggressive trading there.
I seem to lack the Know how to pull of such a trade.
---
Lets continue the game since things are hotting up
I have generally been skittish of AA wars. since I seem to come off worse.
What a difference having Barracks makes.
Wow thats some aggressive trading there.
I seem to lack the Know how to pull of such a trade.
---
Lets continue the game since things are hotting up
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
OK, for this turn, i play the part of the next.
Got it, and post tomorrow.
I would say the next one should be smiddi if ainwood sayes nothing else.
Got it, and post tomorrow.
I would say the next one should be smiddi if ainwood sayes nothing else.
