spleen1015
Regent
I think you might be talking about the settler factory, but I'm not sure.
The Conquest Training Game
- Thread starter ainwood
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Discussion in the GOTM30 thread went into detail on settler farms and why +5 food was so important. There was some mention that it is the average extra food and shield that is important to build. IIRC you need 10food to grow 1 pop point from 3 to 4. Then another 10 from 4-5 giving a total of 20 extra food required over 4 turns. This works out quite nicely at 5food per turn. But we must also remember that we need 30 shields to build a settler with an average of 7.5 shields per turn. While your city is at the lower pop you will be producing less shields, say 7spt. If you have a shield/turn pattern of 7,7 (grow)8,8 then this is an average of 7.5 shields per turn. Hey presto a 4 turn settler factory!
The problem with settler factories is usually getting enough food to enable you to work a high shield tile such as a mined hill. Bonus resources are very useful because they don't have the capped food limit in despotism (by this I mean irrigated grass in anything other than despotism gives 3 food, but only 2 in despo) but there is still a penalty of -1food. The holy grail of settler factories seems to be floodplain + wheat+ irrigated (I think this gives 5 food in despo??)
I think I now understand this! MM is all about maximising growth and minimising waste. For example you might have more food than needed but not enough shields so by swapping citizens around each turn you can alternately produce high food/ high shields and still achieve a 4 turn factory. A lot of the time you will have enough shields to build a unit in x turns but you might produce a remainder that doesn't carry over. The best players pay close attention to mm and hardly waste a shield! I wish I was in that league.
Question:
Why is it bad to have your governor emphasise production? A lot of the GOTM players mention this in their write ups as if it is helpful.
The problem with settler factories is usually getting enough food to enable you to work a high shield tile such as a mined hill. Bonus resources are very useful because they don't have the capped food limit in despotism (by this I mean irrigated grass in anything other than despotism gives 3 food, but only 2 in despo) but there is still a penalty of -1food. The holy grail of settler factories seems to be floodplain + wheat+ irrigated (I think this gives 5 food in despo??)
I think I now understand this! MM is all about maximising growth and minimising waste. For example you might have more food than needed but not enough shields so by swapping citizens around each turn you can alternately produce high food/ high shields and still achieve a 4 turn factory. A lot of the time you will have enough shields to build a unit in x turns but you might produce a remainder that doesn't carry over. The best players pay close attention to mm and hardly waste a shield! I wish I was in that league.
Question:
Why is it bad to have your governor emphasise production? A lot of the GOTM players mention this in their write ups as if it is helpful.
You're both right. It's a settler factory issue. 5 food per turn is one highly desirable target if you want to build a settler every four turns, because that gives you the 2 pop points you need if you have a Granary. And as Mabellino says, the other objective is to find 30 shields per four turn cycle. That's going to be the tough one here.
Now look back at my previous comments and see if you can understand why I was dismissive of the fish as a resource?
There's a key question about the start position that we still don't know the answer to. It will very likely affect whether we can achieve a four turn settler farm, and we won't know the answer until you load up the save. What is it? There's a clue in my next comment ...
When a settler farm is running it expands its population twice, either from 4 to 5 to 6 and back to 4, or from 5 to 6 to 7 and back to 5.
An important note here: the 5-6-7 progression may be necessary to get enough shields, but even though the town never *actually* has a pop of 7 because it drops back to 5 as the settler is produced, it must be *capable* of reaching pop 7. What does the town need to have to be able to do this?
At each expansion you actually get shield production from the new citizen on that turn. IF he can be persuaded to work a forest then you'll get two extra shields at each expansion. By enabling the "Emphasise Production" checkbox for your settler farm city you achieve this, as long as there's a spare forest for the new guy to work. That doesn't mean you turn the city governor on. In fact if you do he'll probably destroy your carefully constructed settler farm. So now you only need 26 shields per four turns from the regular citizens instead of 30.
If you are running the settler farm this way then you will need to redeploy that new citizen every second turn. And that is when micromanagement becomes a very effective tool. If I achieve four turns per settler by micromanaging a settler farm, and you only manage 6 turns per settler, then in 50 turns I have 12 new cities and you have 8.
Now look back at my previous comments and see if you can understand why I was dismissive of the fish as a resource?
There's a key question about the start position that we still don't know the answer to. It will very likely affect whether we can achieve a four turn settler farm, and we won't know the answer until you load up the save. What is it? There's a clue in my next comment ...
It isn't bad, and it is helpful. And the reasons are related to the settler farm setup and the need for shields.
When a settler farm is running it expands its population twice, either from 4 to 5 to 6 and back to 4, or from 5 to 6 to 7 and back to 5.
An important note here: the 5-6-7 progression may be necessary to get enough shields, but even though the town never *actually* has a pop of 7 because it drops back to 5 as the settler is produced, it must be *capable* of reaching pop 7. What does the town need to have to be able to do this?
At each expansion you actually get shield production from the new citizen on that turn. IF he can be persuaded to work a forest then you'll get two extra shields at each expansion. By enabling the "Emphasise Production" checkbox for your settler farm city you achieve this, as long as there's a spare forest for the new guy to work. That doesn't mean you turn the city governor on. In fact if you do he'll probably destroy your carefully constructed settler farm. So now you only need 26 shields per four turns from the regular citizens instead of 30.
If you are running the settler farm this way then you will need to redeploy that new citizen every second turn. And that is when micromanagement becomes a very effective tool. If I achieve four turns per settler by micromanaging a settler farm, and you only manage 6 turns per settler, then in 50 turns I have 12 new cities and you have 8.
spleen1015
Regent
AlanH said:
We need to know if that water is fresh or salt water. Since we won't be able to get the settler farm going at 4-5-6, we need to be able to get to a population of 7. To do that, we need the Aqueduct unless that water is fresh water. If it is, we can build our city next to it and not have to worry about building the Aqueduct.
Sorry for not having participated in the opening discussion lads, I've been sick and home from work for almost a week 
Anyway, I'm back now, and got loads to catch up with (and lots of work waiting too), I guess I'll be posting some opinions and ideas here tomorrow
Anyway, I'm back now, and got loads to catch up with (and lots of work waiting too), I guess I'll be posting some opinions and ideas here tomorrow
Quite right! And building an aqueduct requires construction which isn't going to happen for a couple of thousand years. So if it's salt water it's bye-bye 4-turn settler factory? And do you see why I don't go for fish?
Can I just add my little bit about settler factories.
Obviously +5 food is one magic number here. To work this out quickly, the city square gives +2, and other squares can be calculated by their difference from 2 food as 2 food are needed just to sustain each unit of population (? is this clear). eg a square that produces 1 food is -1 (eg forest), a square producing 5 food is +3. I find this helps to rapidly work out the food surplus available.
Regarding shields there are 2 important figures. 6 shields on turn one will usually allow a 4-turn settler factory (provided there is another 2 shield +0 food square to work on growth, and a forest or the equivalent). This can happen with a turn one population of either 4 or 5.
10 shields on turn one will open up the chance of a 4 turn warrior+settler factory. This is sweet when it happens but in practice, even at pop 5, it isn't often you can get 10 shields, without ruining your 2 turn growth. It almost always requires cow squares, the best squares in the game.
All of this of course is irrelevant without fresh water.
Obviously +5 food is one magic number here. To work this out quickly, the city square gives +2, and other squares can be calculated by their difference from 2 food as 2 food are needed just to sustain each unit of population (? is this clear). eg a square that produces 1 food is -1 (eg forest), a square producing 5 food is +3. I find this helps to rapidly work out the food surplus available.
Regarding shields there are 2 important figures. 6 shields on turn one will usually allow a 4-turn settler factory (provided there is another 2 shield +0 food square to work on growth, and a forest or the equivalent). This can happen with a turn one population of either 4 or 5.
10 shields on turn one will open up the chance of a 4 turn warrior+settler factory. This is sweet when it happens but in practice, even at pop 5, it isn't often you can get 10 shields, without ruining your 2 turn growth. It almost always requires cow squares, the best squares in the game.
All of this of course is irrelevant without fresh water.
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Looks like my write-up isn't critical -> you've got the key ideas that I was going to mention. I'll still write-up my thought processes, because its sort-of formalising things with structure.But the key is that if we believe that we have enough food and shields available to get a settler factory, then pottery is a priority. Otherwise, its not so high.
A couple more points: The wet world means that there will be a river within coo-eee of an industrious civ! Remember: being industrious, we can irrigate fairly quickly, so we can afford to irrigate 4 or fivr tiles to bring waer back (If we really have to! But that's why exploration at the start is important, to determine the best site for our settler factory. Is it the capital, or city #2?
Note that if you have good production, you don't need an aquaduct for a settler factory. You can get one varying from size 4 through 6, with production bonuses.
And a note on governers: Setting the governer to emphaise production is fine, but letting the governer control happiness (and / or production options] is a different story! There is a slight difference.
spleen1015
Regent
I haven't used the governor before. I don't know how reliable it can be. I prefer not using them.
Mauer
Pompous Noble
FriendlyFire said:
I agree with this 100%
spleen1015 said:
I didn't comment on tech research, but I agree with apparently everybody else. I always shoot for pottery. If I already have it then I shoot for bronze/iron working. I think Iron is one of, if not the most, important strategic resource in the game. I also read the same article about Wonder addiction, and it shed some light on the subject for me. However, in any game, I will always shoot for GL. I know it doesn't last that long. But if you take the southern path of the tech tree first, you can get your moneys worth. I think this is a good idea anyways, especially on Pangea, since astronomy is not a must have right now tech. That also gives me time to build libraries. Sorry about the detour
........................Turns the wheel back down AA road.So little Hirohito is gonna settle on one of the tiles we can see in the screenshot right? BG mine I thinks is a must. both game in expanded city is a must. fish is not a must. and the plains, will not inittially have the kind of food we are looking for. If I am wrong correct me. That is why I said worker move to BG and then decide. I like Mabellino's idea of move worker, take screenshot, post it and wait for the flood of ideas.
@ainwood: Don't worry about how fast this process is going. I can load a game and play it fast if I want to. I want to learn and be a Civ champ too.
I've got a question for you. How many Horses can you build for the cost of the GL? And which is better, the Horses or the GL?Mauer said:
Mauer
Pompous Noble
Point taken. This is why I am here.Dianthus said:
I'm not saying that it's better to build lots of Horses rather than the GL. Which is better is subjective. It depends on what your goals are for the game. If you're a war-monger then you will be much better off building the Horses and capturing the GL. If you're a builder then maybe the GL is the better route. Personally I'm a wannabe-war-monger. I build lots of offensive units and then do nothing with themMauer said:
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So have we reached a consensus that we should move the worker to expose more squares, then come back and decide (from that) where to settle? If so: whare do we move the worker?
As an aside on the conversation above: The AI is your lackey. The AI must be manipulated. The AI builds wonders for you. The AI researches techs for you. The AI generates cash for you.
The great thing about wonders is letting the AI build them in a location where you can capture them -> on a pangea map, this becomes easier. Ancient-age wonders are particularly important, because the AI diverts massive resources to building them => resources that they would otherwise put into things like military.
As an aside on the conversation above: The AI is your lackey. The AI must be manipulated. The AI builds wonders for you. The AI researches techs for you. The AI generates cash for you.
The great thing about wonders is letting the AI build them in a location where you can capture them -> on a pangea map, this becomes easier.
Ancient-age wonders are particularly important, because the AI diverts massive resources to building them => resources that they would otherwise put into things like military. spleen1015
Regent
I say we move the worker SW to the BG simply because that will be the first tile we improve. As a result of that, we get to see more of the territory in that direction.
Doesn't building the city reveal one square of the map all the way around the city?
I think if we move the settler, we're going to end up a turn behind with no way to catch up. If we move to take advantage of a wheat square or something, then I can see it. We're getting a bonus that would help us make up for that first turn, but we don't have that.
Of course, we'll decide not to move and there will be a wheat within one move of us.
Doesn't building the city reveal one square of the map all the way around the city?
I think if we move the settler, we're going to end up a turn behind with no way to catch up. If we move to take advantage of a wheat square or something, then I can see it. We're getting a bonus that would help us make up for that first turn, but we don't have that.
Of course, we'll decide not to move and there will be a wheat within one move of us.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Played games with and without the GL.
My main points for not building any AA Wonders still stand. (See my post about making maxium use of the chinese Rider unit)
Oviously the cacasde effect from GL is Free Techs. Moneys and Lux
Oviously the cacade effect from Building Horseman is Leaders, Cities, Pop and finally techs.
Iam not suggesting we NOT build the wonder if circumstances are different.
It just we can do without it.
My main points for not building any AA Wonders still stand. (See my post about making maxium use of the chinese Rider unit)
Oviously the cacasde effect from GL is Free Techs. Moneys and Lux
Oviously the cacade effect from Building Horseman is Leaders, Cities, Pop and finally techs.
Iam not suggesting we NOT build the wonder if circumstances are different.
It just we can do without it.
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Ok, we need to decide which square to move the worker to. Lets look at pros & cons:
('wasted' worker move means that worker is not on a square that he will probably be working initially).
SW: Reveals 2 more (land) squares. Is a BG square, so if we want to mine it, its not a wasted move.
W: Reveals 5 more land squares. Wasted worker move.
NW: Reveals 3 more squares, one of which is probably forest. Can road or chop, or take wasted move.
N: Reveals 5 more land squares. One is probably forest. Can road or chop square, or take wasted move.
NE: Reveals 3 more squares, probably plains. Pretty-much a wasted worker move.
E: Reveals 5 more squares, probably plains. Wasted worker move.
SE: Reveals 2 more squares, possibly one across the coast / bay. Most likely plains. Worker will be on plains, so 'wasted' move.
So what should we do? It is a straight trade-off between revealing more squares against a (potentially) higher chance of wasting a worker move. I think that we can waste one worker move with no major consequence. But where should we move it? West, North or East reveal the most squares.
Comments?
('wasted' worker move means that worker is not on a square that he will probably be working initially).
SW: Reveals 2 more (land) squares. Is a BG square, so if we want to mine it, its not a wasted move.
W: Reveals 5 more land squares. Wasted worker move.
NW: Reveals 3 more squares, one of which is probably forest. Can road or chop, or take wasted move.
N: Reveals 5 more land squares. One is probably forest. Can road or chop square, or take wasted move.
NE: Reveals 3 more squares, probably plains. Pretty-much a wasted worker move.
E: Reveals 5 more squares, probably plains. Wasted worker move.
SE: Reveals 2 more squares, possibly one across the coast / bay. Most likely plains. Worker will be on plains, so 'wasted' move.
So what should we do? It is a straight trade-off between revealing more squares against a (potentially) higher chance of wasting a worker move. I think that we can waste one worker move with no major consequence. But where should we move it? West, North or East reveal the most squares.
Comments?
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Exactly. Whilst an opportune leader might be useful to rush a wonder with, generally its better to let the AI build the wonders and then to capture them where possible. Pangaea makes this easier, and you can always help with strategic tech trading, and even wars.FriendlyFire said:
Ok, I've read all the posts now, and I'm really looking forward to this! All this discussion should really improve all of our games
I've spent almost half an hour studying that start position now, and after having magnified every single pixel (I even printed out an A3 version and hung on the wall in my office, to study while posting
), I can say that there's no bonus/luxury/strategic resources to be seen. The thing that looks interesting to the East, looks like a forest only. This doesn't mean that there are no resources in the vicinity though, they can still be hidden in the fog.
Someone mentioned that we should move the worker SW - to the BG, however I disagree. It's a good point that this is a tile that should be improved asap, but moving the worker there will only reveal two squares. Also, it seems like the coast is following the land west, which means that the only thing we'll reveal down there are 2 grasslands and more coast.
In my opinion there are 4 tiles that would be most suitable for worker exploration; the 2 Game tiles, and the 2 Plain tiles (NE and E). Not only will all these tiles reveal a great deal of land, but by moving to the Game tiles, we can start chopping the forest, which gives extra shields for a Granary.
The reason I want to move to the Plains, is that Plains and Desert tiles are often close to eachother, and seeing as we're playing a wet world, chances are that a river (and Flood Plains) is close.
Anyway, I think moving to one of the Game tiles would be best, as they should be improved as soon as possible.
I haven't seen anyone mentioning city placement yet, and I'm curious as to what we should go for. Since this is a Standard map, with lots of water and 8 rivals, I reckon we should try a close city placement, perhaps with a RCP core to decrease corruption in our main cities. ICS could also be good, especially if we can't find any rivers nearby - as no rivers means no expansion above 6 until we get Aqueducts.
If we encounter an enemy settlement very close to ourselves, I reckon we should get a city with Barracks up and running asap, to start spitting out offensive units. This way we can snatch his capital, and maybe extort him for techs and money in exchange for peace - as long as he's got more cities. It's a bit too early to plan these things now though, I guess we should play a couple of more turns first
There hasn't been too much discussion regarding wonders yet, I'd like to hear more opinions on this! FriendlyFire mentioned the Art of War wonder, what is this? I don't think this exists in Vanilla Civ, unless the GOTM files implements it.
The most important wonder we should get is the Great Library, but I guess it's too early to discuss that now, as it depends on so many factors in the game.
As for Research, I agree that we should go for Pottery @ 100% from the start, unless there's no chances of any Settler Factories in the vicinity.
I've spent almost half an hour studying that start position now, and after having magnified every single pixel (I even printed out an A3 version and hung on the wall in my office, to study while posting
), I can say that there's no bonus/luxury/strategic resources to be seen. The thing that looks interesting to the East, looks like a forest only. This doesn't mean that there are no resources in the vicinity though, they can still be hidden in the fog.Someone mentioned that we should move the worker SW - to the BG, however I disagree. It's a good point that this is a tile that should be improved asap, but moving the worker there will only reveal two squares. Also, it seems like the coast is following the land west, which means that the only thing we'll reveal down there are 2 grasslands and more coast.
In my opinion there are 4 tiles that would be most suitable for worker exploration; the 2 Game tiles, and the 2 Plain tiles (NE and E). Not only will all these tiles reveal a great deal of land, but by moving to the Game tiles, we can start chopping the forest, which gives extra shields for a Granary.
The reason I want to move to the Plains, is that Plains and Desert tiles are often close to eachother, and seeing as we're playing a wet world, chances are that a river (and Flood Plains) is close.
Anyway, I think moving to one of the Game tiles would be best, as they should be improved as soon as possible.
I haven't seen anyone mentioning city placement yet, and I'm curious as to what we should go for. Since this is a Standard map, with lots of water and 8 rivals, I reckon we should try a close city placement, perhaps with a RCP core to decrease corruption in our main cities. ICS could also be good, especially if we can't find any rivers nearby - as no rivers means no expansion above 6 until we get Aqueducts.
If we encounter an enemy settlement very close to ourselves, I reckon we should get a city with Barracks up and running asap, to start spitting out offensive units. This way we can snatch his capital, and maybe extort him for techs and money in exchange for peace - as long as he's got more cities. It's a bit too early to plan these things now though, I guess we should play a couple of more turns first
There hasn't been too much discussion regarding wonders yet, I'd like to hear more opinions on this! FriendlyFire mentioned the Art of War wonder, what is this? I don't think this exists in Vanilla Civ, unless the GOTM files implements it.
The most important wonder we should get is the Great Library, but I guess it's too early to discuss that now, as it depends on so many factors in the game.
As for Research, I agree that we should go for Pottery @ 100% from the start, unless there's no chances of any Settler Factories in the vicinity.
