The destruction of the Free and the Brave

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Why doesn't he just do away with the republic and institute constitutional monarchy, or a dictatorship, that's where he's headed isn't it?

Never, never change Government's in the middle of a war. You can't afford the 5 turn drop in production

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

You dont need to be a Bush-ite to know that. The amount of anti-American articles dished out by him is pathetic.

Motion seconded.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Well I hate to say I told you so but... We are fighting a war in the name of freedom and democracy. What do you think are the first targets WE take out. Democracy and freedom.

You would like to be in a puddle of your own blood when a terrorist managers to infiltrate the country and start knocking off your family, friends, neighbors, YOU, etc. just because you worry about the NSA screening your calls? You need your priorities straightened out. A LOT.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If after 200 years our 'freedoms' and 'rights' cant survive one attack that kills 3000 people, they never really existed in the first place.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

You would like to be in a puddle of your own blood when a terrorist managers to infiltrate the country and start knocking off your family, friends, neighbors, YOU, etc. just because you worry about the NSA screening your calls? You need your priorities straightened out. A LOT.

I can't speak for the US but in the UK we've had anti-terrorism laws since just after 9/11. The net result was the only attack from islamic fundamentalists ever on our soil. I would rather do without the Government having these powers since they have been proven to be useless in any event.

 

[MobBoss]

The real truth of the matter is this. No one in America has lost any rights or freedoms. The brownshirts are not hauling people off in the middle of the night. All of Zulu's rants about this are akin to the conspiracy theory type thinking on 9/11 itself.

Once again, our freedoms and rights are just fine and firmly in place.

@PrinceofLeigh: Do you think that the islamic attacks (by British Citizens, no less) were because of the laws, or simply just inevitable considering how militant Islamic fundalmentalism is? Britian had a problem with vocal militant clerics prior to 9/11, perhaps such laws simply made the inevitable happen?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Once again, our freedoms and rights are just fine and firmly in place.

Of course they are. The Decider told us they are, and of course, he musnt be questioned in war time.

 

[MobBoss]

Of course they are. The Decider told us they are, and of course, he musnt be questioned in war time.

Not at all Bozo. You tell me. Have you been detained, tossed in a cell and questioned? Have you not been able to conduct your life the way you wish these past 3 years? Have your calling habits changed?

NO.

Just because the republicans are in power at this time, DOES NOT mean that all your freedoms have been taken away.

People whine, and cry and moan just way too much for their own good. Way too much energy spent on making mountains out of molehills.

So, for all you whiny little "my rights are eroding" people out there complaining, BE REAL. In all honesty, your life hasnt changed ONE WHIT in the last three years and most likely if it has, it probably has changed for the better (like you make more money now or bought a house you couldnt afford before). Honestly, I am just as free, if not more so, than I was 3 or four years ago. My life has certainly improved tremendously. You people just need to be honest with yourself instead of all that weeping and gnashing of teeth...

 

[Erik Mesoy]

Not at all Bozo. You tell me. Have you been detained, tossed in a cell and questioned? Have you not been able to conduct your life the way you wish these past 3 years? Have your calling habits changed?

Straw man. Straw man. Straw man. This is about the right to privacy. And if someone's calling habits had changed, what would you say then? And haven't several people been detained, tossed into cells without due process and "questioned"?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Mob, like you say, everything is ok, if not better. Except for the fact that the Executive branch is under the impression that its free to do anything it wants to, without oversight of any kind, as long as it has something to do with security.

Thats the part thats not better.

 

[IglooDame]

You would like to be in a puddle of your own blood when a terrorist managers to infiltrate the country and start knocking off your family, friends, neighbors, YOU, etc. just because you worry about the NSA screening your calls? You need your priorities straightened out. A LOT.

Speaking of priorities... Are you willing to forego various civil rights in order to be free from crime? Since recidivism is above 0%, let's make all violent felonies punishable by life imprisonment. Also, many people are murdered by people that they've taken out restraining orders upon, let's convert "restraining orders" to actual restraints and lock them up too. Also, we really do need to eliminate crimes committed with guns, so we'll now be going door-to-door and searching everyone's homes for them. And illegal drugs as well. And you could be smuggling either of them, so we'll now search all cars, to heck with probable cause.

The risk of dying violently at someone else's hand is obviously not a new one, but for some reason we're willing to give up more to avoid (less-probable) deaths from terrorists than we are from the mugger on our local street corner.

 

[MobBoss]

Straw man. Straw man. Straw man. This is about the right to privacy. And if someone's calling habits had changed, what would you say then? And haven't several people been detained, tossed into cells without due process and "questioned"?

So what if it is a straw man (even x3) it is still true. The vast, vast, VAST, majority of peoples lives just chug along, exactly the same.

As for someones habits changing...I would say they are paranoid.

As for people being detained and questioned....lets dont deny that yes, there are people here among us that want to aid terrorists. Is some level of investigation appropriate: Yes. Have we all lost rights due to this level of investigation: No.

By the way, it is also a strawman to allege we are ALL losing our rights because one person somewhere got picked up to be questioned about his possible terrorist ties.

 

[MobBoss]

Mob, like you say, everything is ok, if not better. Except for the fact that the Executive branch is under the impression that its free to do anything it wants to, without oversight of any kind, as long as it has something to do with security.

Thats the part thats not better.

Not at all. Have the FISA courts been disbanded? No. Do we still have three functioning branches of gov? Yes.

Sorry, but the Bush administration does not have a "blank check" as you would have us believe. They cant do what they want.

If so, wouldnt have the Ports deal gone through?

@igloo: Tell me what you have given up. Please.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

@PrinceofLeigh: Do you think that the islamic attacks (by British Citizens, no less) were because of the laws, or simply just inevitable considering how militant Islamic fundalmentalism is? Britian had a problem with vocal militant clerics prior to 9/11, perhaps such laws simply made the inevitable happen?

What problem did we have with militant clerics? A minority of people screaming for change, even violent change, is nothing new nor is it something to be worried about. I'd put them in the same category as the BNP who, once you've sat and listened to their argument, are to be laughed at more than feared.

I don't think that the attacks were because of the anti-terrorism laws but from hearing news reports in our country it is clear that the Islamic community as a whole feels alienated because of them.

There was no precedent for the 7/7 attack, I don't see how it could be considered to be "inevitable". At least before we invaded Iraq. The inquiry into the attacks demonstrated that the reasoning behind it was Britain's involvement in Iraq. It's quite a turn-around that an attack by Islamic Fundamentalist only became inevitable once we joined Georgey Boys "War on Terror".

 

[El_Machinae]

I know that cross-border shipping has gotten a LOT more expensive than it used to be.

I'd like to know where the rows of detained terrorists and drug dealers are, since all the borders have been tightened?

 

[MobBoss]

There was no precedent for the 7/7 attack, I don't see how it could be considered to be "inevitable". At least before we invaded Iraq. The inquiry into the attacks demonstrated that the reasoning behind it was Britain's involvement in Iraq. It's quite a turn-around that an attack by Islamic Fundamentalist only became inevitable once we joined Georgey Boys "War on Terror".

Funny, a good portion of our country felt the same way when we aided Britain in WWI and WWII.

Anytime being a ally of the USA gets to be too burdensome feel free to call the relationship quits.

 

[Kayak]

People whine, and cry and moan just way too much for their own good. Way too much energy spent on making mountains out of molehills.

If no one complained I would be even more scared. Sorry, that whining is called protesting, and it is a legitemate way to bring up and highlight dissagrements. The fact that you think no one should do so and that we should trust the state, when it has given no indication of trusworthiness (on the contrary it has been the exact opposite), alarms me really. It makes me want to ask how scared you really are. What are you willing to give up, how far are you willing to go?

 

[Tenochtitlan]

Funny, a good portion of our country felt the same way when we aided Britain in WWI and WWII.

Anytime being a ally of the USA gets to be too burdensome feel free to call the relationship quits.

Do you not fear that the government become very powerful and in control of the people? It is allowing itself, in the name of security to become so. This is not a problem when the government is honest, competent and trustworthy. But what if there happens unwarranted influence by corrupt people in or on government? Corruption is inevitable when government has excess power. This worries me. America is the most powerful nation on earth. This means that it cannot be destroyed from the outside. So why give government excess power and give chance for America to be destroyed from the inside(by corruption)?

Abraham Lincoln said,
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Mob, the funny thing is, if Gore was president, and had done the same exact things Bush has, in the name of security, youd be screaming bloody murder. The even funnier thing is that me, you, and everyone else, know its true

 

[.Shane.]

The civil war was not faught for just the right to keep slaves. Being proud of your southern heritage does not make you a bigot.

Actually, it was. Every single issue that you want to try and use to divert attention away from this fact only reinforces the point.

If you want to discuss it further, PM me or maybe start a new thread?

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Now to be on-topic....

Yet another reason to impeach Bush.

Let's see if the holier-than-thou Republican leadership will act. Let me remind you of some of their words of vigilance during another presidency:

"I will have no part in the creation of a constitutional double-standard to benefit the President," Sen. Bill Frist

"No man is above the law, and no man is below the law - that's the principle that we all hold very dear in this country," Rep. Tom Delay asserted.

"The rule of law protects you and me from the midnight fire on our roof or the 3am knock on our door," warned Rep Henry Hyde

Its not hard to find more. Keep in mind, they'll all be old, because none of these hypocrites would dare utter these words today.