The destruction of the Free and the Brave

zulu9812

The Newbie Nightmare
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from The Financial Times
George W. Bush assured Americans this week that his administration was doing nothing illegal by maintaining a record of telephone calls made by about 200m US subscribers. But the president has already made clear that his definition of what is legal applies to virtually anything he chooses to authorise in the name of national *security.

The leak on Thursday to the USA Today newspaper revealing that the US National Security Agency was keeping a log of billions of calls made each year in America – in what is surely the largest database ever assembled – is troubling at many levels. It is the latest example of the administration’s habit of intruding on American freedoms – whether the right to privacy, habeas corpus or other ironclad constitutional protections – without having obtained permission from the courts or Congress.

Following the terrorist attacks of September 11 2001, Mr Bush de*clared America was engaged in a war that had no apparent territorial or temporal limits. He also made it clear he believed it was the president’s prerogative to decide how, where and when to conduct the war on terror – or any other war – without recourse to Congress. Mr Bush’s doctrine, which some call the “new imperial presidency”, strikes at the heart of America’s constitutional separation of *powers.

The implications of Mr Bush’s doctrine are too manifold to enumerate here. But it is worth restating the most egregious. Since 2001 Mr Bush has decreed that it is the right of the executive alone to decide who – whether American or foreign – qualifies as an “unlawful enemy combatant” and then to detain that person without access to a lawyer or possibility of trial for an indefinite period, until death if necessary. Likewise, Mr Bush has absolved himself from following US and international laws that ban the use of torture for certain categories of people who are determined by the executive alone. Any attempt by Congress to constrain the administration by enacting new statutes is treated as advisory rather than legally binding. Mr Bush has appended more than 500 “signing statements” to new laws that give him the right to interpret what the law means. The most shocking example was Mr Bush’s assertion of the president’s right to ignore elements of a bill enacted by Congress last December that outlawed the use of torture.

In the words of the pro-Republican Cato Institute, Mr Bush’s doctrine states that, “when we’re at war, anything goes, and the president gets to decide when we’re at war”. Any attempt to question Mr Bush’s doctrine or to divulge its operational detail to the public is portrayed as assisting America’s enemies, including al-Qaeda. The only safeguard proffered against the executive’s abuse of these extraordinary wartime powers is that Mr Bush can be trusted to do the right thing.

None of this is to dispute the fact that the fight against terrorism is different to the prosecution of conventional war and might necessitate the temporary curbing of certain freedoms, including the right to privacy. Most reasonable people, including judges, legislators and ordinary citizens, can agree on this. But Mr Bush’s actions go much further. Ultimately, they are also self-defeating. Whether or not Congress turns Democrat in November, Mr Bush faces a constitutional backlash that is probably unstoppable. In pursuit of the imperial presidency, Mr Bush has turned himself into a very premature lame duck.

So Bush thinks it's acceptable to wiretap 200 million US citizens? Whatever happened to being free from unwarranted suspicion? Due process? Probable cause?
 
Bush is above international law, so naturally why shouldn't he be above domestic law as well? Goes without saying.
 
We will now have a group of Bushites try to show that the Bush administration's contempt for laws and the Constitution is actually a good thing.
 
We will also have a group of Bushpologeticists try to show that zulu is an evil communist troll sent by Satan from outer space. Or something.
 
MjM said:
You dont need to be a Bush-ite to know that. The amount of anti-American articles dished out by him is pathetic.

Says the man with the avatar of a Confederate flag and a German Iron Cross.

Tell me, do you think of yourself as racist?
 
Lotus49 said:
Bush is above international law, so naturally why shouldn't he be above domestic law as well? Goes without saying.

The logic of the damned.:)

Why doesn't he just do away with the republic and institute constitutional monarchy, or a dictatorship, that's where he's headed isn't it?
 
We should just decommission the army, navy, air force, and CIA and just try and be nice to the terrorist elements out there. I'd bet they'd stop and give us a hug.
 
Actually it would be surprisingly effective, as terroism tends to flourish according to provocation, I.e the more you stoke it up the more it burns and the fiercer. I'm not sure getting rid of the Army and Navy is a great idea but not meddling and trying to come to a peaceful agreement certainly would achieve better results than so far.:p
 
zulu9812 said:
Says the man with the avatar of a Confederate flag and a German Iron Cross.

Tell me, do you think of yourself as racist?


A marksman in the US Army gets a medle in the shape of an iron cross. Does that make the US Army raceist?

The confederate flag is not a symbol of raceism. The civil war was not faught for just the right to keep slaves. Being proud of your southern heritage does not make you a bigot.

By your thinking since the KKK uses a cross anyone who wears a cross is a white supremasis.



Back on topic:
I find it odd that Bush can do nothing right in so mnany peoples eyes. Why is this? If what Bush does is wrong take it to court. It wont hold water and be tossed out because what the Bush admin. has done so far has been with in the law. The only law broken was by the idiot at the NSA with an axe to grind that let out the leak. Scooter Libby gets reamed for leaking the name of Vallery Plame. A name BTW that wasn't even covered under the law regarding outing covert ops. I don't see the NSA leaker getting charged with the crime they commited. It comes down to Bush is always wrong and the anti-Bush people are always right.
 
Sidhe said:
Actually it would be surprisingly effective, as terroism tends to flourish according to provocation, I.e the more you stoke it up the more it burns and the fiercer. I'm not sure getting rid of the Army and Navy is a great idea but not meddling and trying to come to a peaceful agreement certainly would achieve better results than so far.:p

When push comes to shove there will always be certain extremists that just hate America and the western democracies. No matter what there will be people like Bin Laden who have their own bizarre little ethos system that doesn't involve the notion of live and let live. As history has proven it only takes about two dozen people to incinerate over two thousand.

Personally I think fighting terrorists with the conventional army is a pretty stupid idea and I can find a lot of flaws with the war in Iraq. However, the one key way you DO fight terrorism is through intelligence work. It's the 21st century. We aren't dealing with noble warriors like Saladin. These are people that would decapitate you just because you are a westerner and then videotape it just to prove the point.

I'm a lawyer, I know all too well about the restrictions of the Constitution on certain Executive branch powers. Nonetheless we live in a dangerous world and I fully endorse there existing a gray area in defining those limits. Let's say something like September 11th happened again. First thing people are going to do is rush to Bush (or whoever the current President is) and say "Uh, what happened?" I really doubt the administration is using these records for a laugh, or to spy on the American populace, or just to intentionally harm the philosophies that underly the Constitution. They are doing it to prevent people from getting killed.

While people can argue "If they start with this, what's next?" You can reverse it and say "If we erode this level of intelligence gathering, what's next?" This is not a pretty world. There is a very very ugly underbelly lurking out there that would just as soon as cut your throat then give you the time of day. It's not an exact calculus but, in my opinion, the need to allay certain theoretical "harms" shouldn't trump doing nearly everything we can around the periphery to stop people from being killed.
 
I agree 100% with that post. I too have been advocating a more covert softly softly catchy monkey approach and a move away from direct military action, I thought I was in the minority. Not that I'm saying we should all sit on the grass and tell tales of friendship and peace and make daisy chains to wear in our hair.:) But a bit of diplomacy even if thinly vieled is better than a hornet's nest.
 
The Bush administration's biggest foreign policy blunder was the whole "Axis of Evil" thing. Not only does it sound completely stupid to anyone with half a brain but eventually the nutjobs that run these countries will lose power and/or die and give way to more enlightened leaders. And honestly, the same applies to American politics. I can understand why some people don't like Bush, but I really think people go too overboard in the drama department saying he'll be the ruination of the country or all of our rights will be stripped away, etc. etc. He leaves office in two years. Time marches on. Hell, Franklin Roosevelt butchered the Constituion far worse than what people are alleging the Bush administration of doing.

Granted we tend to emphasize the here and now since we are living in it. However, if more people just sat back and looked at the grand scheme of things they'd realize we aren't headed to the dark abyss of some totalitarian regime.
 
Brian_B said:
The Bush administration's biggest foreign policy blunder was the whole "Axis of Evil" thing. Not only does it sound completely stupid to anyone with half a brain but eventually the nutjobs that run these countries will lose power and/or die and give way to more enlightened leaders. And honestly, the same applies to American politics. I can understand why some people don't like Bush, but I really think people go too overboard in the drama department saying he'll be the ruination of the country or all of our rights will be stripped away, etc. etc. He leaves office in two years. Time marches on. Hell, Franklin Roosevelt butchered the Constituion far worse than what people are alleging the Bush administration of doing.

Granted we tend to emphasize the here and now since we are living in it. However, if more people just sat back and looked at the grand scheme of things they'd realize we aren't headed to the dark abyss of some totalitarian regime.

You are overemphasising the role of the individual. American politics differs from most other democracies in that the office of President holds less power than chief executives in other countries (for example, Tony Blair leads both the executive and legislative branch). Bush could never do what he does without other like-minded individuals in Congress, in the intelligence services, the civil servants who work in the government departments, etc.

As an example, look at Bill Clinton. You might not think it to look at it now, but the US-Mexico border was once secure. In fact, in 1994, Clinton had the border militarised. Why was this? One anagram - NAFTA. The US government knew fine well that NAFTA would drive down wages in Mexico, increase relative poverty and generally depress the Mexican economy - all to give US corporations cheap labour. Clinton's government predicted that Mexico-to-UISA emigration would drastically increase, so extra security was laid on to prevent that happening. To sum up, Clinton deliberately ruined the lives of Mexico's working class and secured the border so as to keep the Mexicans in Mexico - even though they were suffering at the hands of US policy.

If that all sounds very conservative to you, that's because it is conservative. American politics will always be conservative: it's simply a matter of to what degree.
 
Here is the solution that will solve all your questions

Bush is above the law. He is above the constitution, international law, domestic law, etc

Therefore anything bush does is legal

There done, be sure to kiss your freedoms goodbye as well. Just remember if bush does something blantantly illegal it is actually bush being above the law
 
zulu9812 said:
So Bush thinks it's acceptable to wiretap 200 million US citizens? Whatever happened to being free from unwarranted suspicion? Due process? Probable cause?

Typical misleading and myopic post from Zulu alleging that the gov, once more, has spies in your toilet to monitor what you ate the night before.

Tell me zulu, where do you get your 200 million wiretaps number? Since there is no such thing or program to wiretap all of america, I am going to have to cry bs on your allegation. Perhaps you are confusing the data mining and turnover of the phone records from the phone companies? If so, that is simply NOT wiretapping in any way, shape or form.

Nice spin.

You might not think it to look at it now, but the US-Mexico border was once secure. In fact, in 1994, Clinton had the border militarised.

To allege that the US-Mexico border was secure during the Clinton years is pure lunacy. Clinton had the border militarized? News to me. Proof please. Also, as a side note, Woodrow Wilson also had the border militarized. So?
 
Well I hate to say I told you so but... We are fighting a war in the name of freedom and democracy. What do you think are the first targets WE take out. Democracy and freedom.
 
HawkeyeGS said:
Well I hate to say I told you so but... We are fighting a war in the name of freedom and democracy. What do you think are the first targets WE take out. Democracy and freedom.

A.) There tends to be a distinct lack of freedom in war zones.
B.) Democracy must be born naturally from within, it can't be forced by the hand of an outsider. As this latest Iraq/Afghanistan experiment shows.
 
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