the dovillio

[Ogden Reeve]

I wonder if there is any way to let the Doviollo be the only civilization that can receive great generals from combat. That would be cool and also thematically valid, what with the Doviollo being all about war.

Might be overpowered, though not more then a doviollo leader with charismatic, in my opinion.

 

[Grey Fox]

That's more of a Bannor thing. Though, their way of doing it is all regular GP's become Great Commanders during a Crusade (if that hasn't changed lately).

 

[Ogden Reeve]

oh yea... i forgot about the bannor...
Well come to think of it I really don't think anything is lacking from the doviollo.
They feel conceptually fleshed out and fun to play with.
I wish i could say the same for the Malakim!
(The civilization all of us want to love, but just can't... yet)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

is that thing about the Bannor, Crusade and Great Commanders true? I haven't noticed it mentioned ANYWHERE!

 

[kenken244]

It used to be true, though it was one of the things taken out in the bts conversion.

 

[25Hour]

I'd definitely support giving the Doviello large beaker bonuses from razing cities. In fact, I think it'd be neat if city-razing became the main driver of Doviello technology-- after all, the Clan seems to have a pretty large lead in terms of unit count, and the Doviello should have something around there in terms of usefulness. I like the FFH motto of "where everything is unbalanced, nothing is", but the Doviello don't have any horribly unbalanced things going for them, which is why I like the idea of them potentially being very technological-- but only if they raze and plunder every enemy city in sight. Give them something like 1-5 times their GP/turn in beakers when razing cities (the multiplier varying based on city size), and it seems like the ability would scale pretty well throughout the game.

(This idea does, at least, seem more interesting as an attack incentive than just giving the Doviello a bunch of grunts at the start of the game. Although I've never really liked that ability, so that could just be me.)

I also think it'd be interesting to make the Doviello workers more combat-oriented-- possibly by making them essentially expensive, 2-move Warriors with the ability to use all weapons (and attack, natch). This would mean that the Doviello no longer have to worry much about guarding the homestead when going to war, since their workers are formidable soldiers in their own right that could shut down raiders (being 2 move and all). Balance may be helped by making them slightly more expensive, at least moreso than axemen, so that they don't displace them when going on the offensive. And it definitely fits the Doviello theme of "every man for himself".

 

[JFSebastian]

Having the Doviello generate great commanders through combat is an interesting idea. Fits their theme well. Perhaps just reactivating the great general mechanic for all civs would help with the shortage of great commanders in general. Then give the Doviello a bonus there so they generate more than others? Why exactly was the great general mechanic removed for FFH2 to begin with?

 

[Lord Parkin]

Why exactly was the great general mechanic removed for FFH2 to begin with?

I'd like to know this too, actually...

 

[Methuselah]

I'd like to know this too, actually...

I'm guessing it's because we have great commanders instead. If they were given by the great general bar, they'd be quite powerful.

 

[Iceciro]

So lenghten the bar? As it stands it's very hard to finagle a Great Commander, mainly because you don't get military specialists >_>

 

[renardargent]

Sorry if this kind of idea was already propose, but how about giving Doviello a civic trait that provides certain free promotion to their units through each Combat promotions they have?
(and I would like go for empower, so they won't be overpowered, but still +10% per combat would be quite significant, I believe)
This would work nice for both leaders, but would be slightly oriented toward Charadon, as he possesses aggressive trait.

 

[JFSebastian]

Sorry if this kind of idea was already propose, but how about giving Doviello a civic trait that provides certain free promotion to their units through each Combat promotions they have?
(and I would like go for empower, so they won't be overpowered, but still +10% per combat would be quite significant, I believe)
This would work nice for both leaders, but would be slightly oriented toward Charadon, as he possesses aggressive trait.

Ooooh, your post just made me think of an idea. What if you made it so that each time a Doviello unit won a combat, it gained an empowered promotion that would only last for X number of turns? Kind of like a war frenzy they would get worked up into as they destroy enemies. Perhaps even give the empowered promotion to the entire stack and make it only last a turn? 5 victories would fully empower the stack and make it a little easier to take out the rest of a city's defenders. The powerful units would empower the weaker greener troops, giving them a little better chance of survival. Perhaps you could empower them win or lose, they just get worked up from seeing combat period.

 

[jprc]

1.5 years after starting FFH, I play the various scenarii, and in "return of Winter", it is the 1st time I play the Doviello as I was never tempted to do so in open games !...

2 things about Lucian:
1- Lucian is classified as a heroe. I do not see why. It is nothing more than a warrior+1. Nothing more. really. He is a big question mark to me, and for the 1st time, I have a feeling of something "unachieved" somehow
2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has benn killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with a

I do not get it.
Why making a so pointless unit? No flavour whatsoever. Nothing special. Not even a spell that would make a Loki by instance so special... by instance, if he has to die, then it can be converted randomly in any other normal unique unit, from any other civilization! Ending up with a vampire or morbius of gregori medic would be fun...

(I have posted also this comment into the "return of winter" scenario thread)

 

[DioBrando]

1.5 years after starting FFH, I play the various scenarii, and in "return of Winter", it is the 1st time I play the Doviello as I was never tempted to do so in open games !...

2 things about Lucian:
1- Lucian is classified as a heroe. I do not see why. It is nothing more than a warrior+1. Nothing more. really. He is a big question mark to me, and for the 1st time, I have a feeling of something "unachieved" somehow
2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has benn killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with a

I do not get it.
Why making a so pointless unit? No flavour whatsoever. Nothing special. Not even a spell that would make a Loki by instance so special... by instance, if he has to die, then it can be converted randomly in any other normal unique unit, from any other civilization! Ending up with a vampire or morbius of gregori medic would be fun...

(I have posted also this comment into the "return of winter" scenario thread)

Lucius plays a big part as a commander in most of the Doviello flavor stories. He's basically a Sons of Asena that you get at turn 0, without any cost at all. He is a huge advantage if you rush someone with beastmen, as you should with Doviello.

Also, Doviello has another "real" hero that is very powerful, so it's just dumb to complain about them getting a free axeman with a name.

 

[Imuratep]

1.5 years after starting FFH, I play the various scenarii, and in "return of Winter", it is the 1st time I play the Doviello as I was never tempted to do so in open games !...

2 things about Lucian:
1- Lucian is classified as a heroe. I do not see why. It is nothing more than a warrior+1. Nothing more. really. He is a big question mark to me, and for the 1st time, I have a feeling of something "unachieved" somehow
2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has benn killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with a

I do not get it.
Why making a so pointless unit? No flavour whatsoever. Nothing special. Not even a spell that would make a Loki by instance so special... by instance, if he has to die, then it can be converted randomly in any other normal unique unit, from any other civilization! Ending up with a vampire or morbius of gregori medic would be fun...

(I have posted also this comment into the "return of winter" scenario thread)

Luzian is what makes the Doviello especially Charadon strong early on. With no other civ you can conquer an opponent at turn 10 and a slightly protected Luzian is the reason for that. In one of my games I even conquered 3 opponents at turn 100 and 2 others after 50 additional turns.
Of course you could give him some flavor ability. But it had to be balanced really well to prevent him from being overpowered. If it's possible you could just make him a warrior with bronze weapons and different graphics as normal beastmen (the one he has right now). This way you would be able to use the upgrade mechanic on him and it would be only a slight boost for the Doviello.

 

[jprc]

I am not sure we talk about the same person. I talk about Lucian, but your 2 replies are about Luzian, then Lucius. As I do not know the Doviello, it is possible that they exist also...


"so it's just dumb to complain"
Hum... I am not sure if it does not sound a bit rude... and I fail to see where I "complain". I express my feeling and surprise about a part that is - in my humble opinion - weaker. I am afraid that it is you who complains about my feelings...


"if you rush someone with beastmen, as you should with Doviello."
It is a matter of fact that, in the scenario "Return of Winter", Lucian is definitely the solution for a simple win. But this is a scenario, and in a regular game, I still do not see how he can be usefull, except, say, in a game with option "ragging barbarians" enabled, or/and with numerous civilization facilitating a quick encounter...

So then it is exactly why I have never played the Doviello. Rushing is definitely not what I like to see in civ games: it is merely a "quick and dirty" path for a win I reserve for games such as Company of Heroes or Half-Life. Being in my 50s, I like to take more my time, and I am more in role playing games (ex. Oblivion, BG, NWN...) where rushing is the quickest path ... to your own death!!
Nonetheless, I still fail to understand Lucian, if it is designed for rush. As far as I red most Kael's posts, rushing is not part of the global concept into FFH...
Ok... still a mistery to me... I can live with it!

Actually, I think we should consider Lucian not as a Hero (in spite being classified as such, it has no hero promotion), but as a National Unit, with 1 only authorized. That would solve the misunderstanding concerning its status, and some expectations...

 

[Honor]

Doviello is a rush civ, unfortunately, and there is currently not much else to them than that.

 

[Emptiness]

2- I understand now why, in ALL my games (emperor, mostly >=18 civs, large & huge) for a few months now, I ALWAYS see after a few turns the yellow line on top of my screen saying "Lucian has benn killed". I always thought " I would not like to be this civ with a

The AI just doesn't know how to keep Lucian safe. This isn't a problem with Lucian, or with the Doviello, but rather a problem with the AI. It treats Lucian (and all of its other units) as if they were expendable.

I am not sure we talk about the same person. I talk about Lucian, but your 2 replies are about Luzian, then Lucius. As I do not know the Doviello, it is possible that they exist also...

Yes, they are talking about Lucian.

I still do not see how he can be usefull, except, say, in a game with option "ragging barbarians" enabled, or/and with numerous civilization facilitating a quick encounter...

So then it is exactly why I have never played the Doviello. Rushing is definitely not what I like to see in civ games: it is merely a "quick and dirty" path for a win I reserve for games such as Company of Heroes or Half-Life.

If you don't like rushing the the Doviello probably isn't the Civ for you. I think this is what DioBrando meant by his comment which you quoted. It is possible to play the Doviello without rushing, but that is one of their main strengths. Lucian can defend, of course, so he can make one of your cities a little more secure if you're choosing to play defensively. However, the higher the difficulty level you play on the harder it will be to win with the Doviello without taking advantage of rushing.

Actually, I think we should consider Lucian not as a Hero (in spite being classified as such, it has no hero promotion), but as a National Unit, with 1 only authorized. That would solve the misunderstanding concerning its status, and some expectations...

Making Lucian a world unit would not solve the misunderstanding, it would make it worse. Lucian is a specific person. If he were made a world unit then you could just build a new one if he died - very confusing and inaccurate. He can't have the Hero promotion because the free xp provided by that promotion would make him much too powerful, since no tech must be researched to get him and he costs no production (being provided for free at the start). He's a Hero without the Hero promotion. This may be confusing, but it is balanced and shows us that there's more to being a Hero than having a specific promotion.

 

[JonathanStrange]

The few times I've played the Doviello, I've rushed: it seems what they're good at and their "weak" hero does earn his pay in this stage of the game. And he dies relatively quickly too; but those extra cities he's helped take? His legacy.

One of the simple civs the AI plays well enough; well there's the over-expansion issue, but otherwise...

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Aside from their rushing abillities (which are second to none) The doviello can produce full fledged units and armies from combat. This may not seem like much at first, but its kind of a big deal. With the slavery civic, 1 out of every 4 victories will give you a slave. Combined with captured workers, this means that you can get mobilized reinforcements just by winning combats. Where the clan and the khazad excel at producing units through hammers, the doviello can produce units through combat victories. And those units can produce more units, and those units will in turn produce more units. For those that do not grasp the full power of this mechanic, compare it to guild of the nine. At currency, you can purchase strength 5 + metal weapons units for 180 gold. The doviello, under Mahala can get warriors for 10 gold, axemen for 30 total gold (20+10), and champions for 60 (iirc) total gold (and the champions are stronger than mercs) anywhere on the map, even in a far of distant war. Since mahala has the raider trait, gold is not an issue as long as you are at war. Thus you could go into a war with 20 level 3 axemen and come out of the war with 30 level 5 champions. All you need to get started is a successful initial war and to be in a perpetual state of war throughout the game. This is easily one of, if not the most powerful military mechanics before top tier units become available.