The East Asia Thread

[ReindeerThistle]

China puts its muscle where its mouth is... can't say so much for 'Murica.

China imposes air quality targets

BEIJING, Jan. 7 (Xinhua) -- China's 31 provinces, municipalities and autonomous regions have been set targets to reduce main air pollutants by 5 to 25 percent, in the country's latest effort to combat pollution.

Among the provincial-level regions, eleven were given PM2.5-reducing tasks, including an annual 25 percent decrease, the highest, for Beijing and neighboring Tianjin municipality and Hebei Province, according to a liability paper signed Tuesday by the regions and the Ministry of Environmental Protection.

Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Shandong and Shanxi will have to cut the indices by 20 percent, followed by 15 percent for Guangdong and Chongqing and 10 percent for Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region.

The other regions were ordered to cut their PM10 readings by 5 to 15 percent, with only Hainan and Yunnan provinces and Tibet Autonomous Region, where air pollution is relatively slight, given no specific goals but "continuous improvements" must be made.
PM2.5 refers to airborne particles measuring less than 2.5 microns while PM10 gauges particulate matter under 10 micrometers. Both are main air pollution indicators.

The paper also urged regions to take various measures such as reducing the use of coal, eliminating outdated industrial capacity as well as better management and control of heating boilers, vehicles and dust.
Local governments have been ordered to map out detailed plans to ensure the implementation of various anti-pollution methods and lay down specific goals for each year.

Meanwhile, the State Council, or China's Cabinet, is mulling a system to evaluate each provincial-level government's progress, and those failing to reach their goals will be named and shamed. They will have to provide explanations and make corrections.

Despite a wide spectrum of measures including severer punishment for industrial polluters and the auction and lottery of car license plates, a government report revealed last month that progress was lagging in four environmental targets, including carbon dioxide emissions and energy consumption.
In the relatively more polluted northern area, Beijing reported 58 days of heavy air pollution last year, or roughly one heavy pollution day in every six.

 

[Glassfan]

China puts its muscle where its mouth is... can't say so much for 'Murica.

'Murica - better known as the USA - took care of this back in the 1970's. Los Angeles back then looked like Beijing does today. A lot of polution standards - air, land, water, pesticides, etc. - were adopted in the 70s throughout the Western World. China's way behind.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Oh, totally understand, Glassfan... but USA is still #1 per capita polluter.

 

[bugwar]

Oh, totally understand, Glassfan... but USA is still #1 per capita polluter.

Country A has a population of 100. They put out 1000 units of Pollution. Their per capita pollution rate is 10.

Country B has a population of 1000. They put out nine times as much pollution as Country A, or 9000 units. Yet their per capita pollution rate is 9.

Guess which country has a ways to go?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

True, but China is doing something about pollution.. and adopting greener solutions while growing.

US xhcked its industry overseas... ko factories, no pollution.

 

[civ_king]

True, but China is doing something about pollution.. and adopting greener solutions while growing.

US xhcked its industry overseas... ko factories, no pollution.

Fixing LA wasn't about outsourcing industry, it was about limiting pollution especially car pollution.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Sure, but what about carbond emissions per person?

A more useful measurement is carbon emissions per capita (person). Under that measurement, the average American is responsible for 19.8 tonnes per person, and the average Chinese citizen clocks in at 4.6 tonnes.

The Guardian, Sept 2, 2009.

But "US" emissions don't account for offshore oil drilling. 80% of the holes they poke in the Gulf of Mexico don't produce oil, but emit methane whose greenhouse effect is greater than all the cars in the US.

 

[Takhisis]

I thought the rest of the forum was about discussing the US.

 

[Glassfan]

True, but China is doing something about pollution.. and adopting greener solutions while growing.

You seem to be saying that China is just now passing laws that have been adopted in the West a generation ago...

But "US" emissions don't account for offshore oil drilling. 80% of the holes they poke in the Gulf of Mexico don't produce oil, but emit methane whose greenhouse effect is greater than all the cars in the US.

So China, which gets most of it's oil from the Persian Gulf, is responsible for polution there too?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I thought the rest of the forum was about discussing the US.

And here you may discuss the US while comparing it to China instead of Europe.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

You seem to be saying that China is just now passing laws that have been adopted in the West a generation ago...

Laws =/= actual reductions in emissions as far as US is concerned, necessarily. China's laws may be similar... but my point is that while China is behind, as you say, relative to their development, they did not wait over 100 years -- as the US did -- to adopt restrictions and impose emissions standards.

And when the climate summit happened in Poland .... who was the main target of criticism from the developing world? China? No. The US.

China's measures have been material... they are the world's largest producers of solar panels and they are developing cleaner systems for energy production.

Drive along the Pennsylvania Turnpike sometime. Every 3 miles is a billboard that reads "The Sun sets. Wind Dies. But there is always coal." I am not making this up.

China, as it makes the transition, will have jobs and a plan for those workers displaced by greener industries.

But there are smart people in the US -- I meet them all the time. There's a plant that processes onions that runs entirely on methane generated from waste onion peels...

So China, which gets most of it's oil from the Persian Gulf, is responsible for polution there too?

They seem to think so.

But Dubai is a city that gets more sunlight year-round than anywhere... and there is not one solar panel.

Golden rule...

 

[Glassfan]

... but USA is still #1 per capita polluter.

...while China is the #1 absolute polluter.

China's measures have been material... they are the world's largest producers of solar panels and they are developing cleaner systems for energy production.

...for sale abroad.

As we know well, it takes more than just passing a law to fight pollution.

 

[Tee Kay]

...while China is the #1 absolute polluter.

As we all know one American life is worth 10 Chinese ones.

...for sale abroad.

And domestic consumption (and even if it's generating clean energy abroad it's still generating clean energy isn't it?)

As we know well, it takes more than just passing a law to fight pollution.

Hence the accelerating pace of construction of new renewable power plants.

 

[JohannaK]

Let's just say both countries have a long way to go.

 

[Tee Kay]

Let's just say both countries have a long way to go.

There is no equation between the increasing momentum of China's push towards renewables and nuclear and the stagnation of America's, at least in the political sphere. The majority political party in the United States is filled with climate change deniers, for chrissakes.

 

[JohannaK]

Well, I gave up on seeing the US as advanced some time ago, to be frank.

 

[Glassfan]

Let's just say both countries have a long way to go.

Agreed. I would say most countries.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

There is no equation between the increasing momentum of China's push towards renewables and nuclear and the stagnation of America's, at least in the political sphere. The majority political party in the United States is filled with climate change deniers, for chrissakes.

QFT.

I'm a Left Hegelian... there is being and becoming. US is stuck in the "been," China is moving to the becoming.

 

[bugwar]

QFT.

I'm a Left Hegelian... there is being and becoming. US is stuck in the "been," China is moving to the becoming.

Country A has 1000 units of civilization.
It improves by nine units this year.
Less than one percent improvement from the base.
You might not even notice the change.


Country B has 10 units of civilization.
It improves by one unit this year.
A ten percent growth in civilization!
Woot.


Guess which country is doing better?

 

[JohannaK]

Hegelian

I am sorry, but as someone who has read Schopenhauer, I must lose all respect for you.