The Emperor Masters' Challenge

[Murky]

I will not post an update tonight. I need some sleep. I don't want to be too hasty, but let's just say good game, everyone. It doesn't look like we can win now. Looking at the situation, I can't imagine how we can. The other continent is apparently as peaceful as we feared, and they are out-teching us so much it's not funny at all

I will post the updates from my last round very soon, probably with a short post mortem at the end. I think the game should subsequently be open for anyone who wishes to tackle the challenge and try to win. Best of luck at that.

My sincere apologies that I've wasted your time in this thread. I hope you've enjoyed it, anyhow. Yes, I'm aware I've disgraced myself I think this is the first and last Emperor's Challenge from me.

Thanks for your support up to this point, though

It's tough enough to win on Emperor but do it in that particular situation would've been extremely difficult for anyone.

Thanks for the thread. Gained a lot of insight into the game from reading it.

 

[Jaca]

I hope this won't be the last Emperor challenge if you lose. I enjoyed reading the thread and hope to see another one.

As long time Monarch player, I can only second that!

 

[pigswill]

Don't give up. S*** happens.

 

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,

honestly watching this thread helped me move from noble to prince. do not underestimate the value of your contributions!! I am going to be eagerly following your next game!!

yeah your starting position and neighbors suck but that happens. definately have to agree with going down fighting.

get the continent secure, then either try to shoot for cultural (you might be able to pull it off) or get yourself a navy and prepare for D-day. even if it fails its always fun to sack pillage and burn everything

and if you get to build the manhattan project well then you might as well nuke them to death.. that'll show em

NaZ

 

[Gnarfflinger]

Maybe not emperor, but you could try a Monarch Master's Challenge. I really can't comment because I am lucky to win 1 in 4 on Noble...

 

[futurehermit]

I'd like to see another emperor masters' challenge. If not by Aelf then by someone else.

 

[voek]

Not a waste of time at all. I have enjoyed this very much and I think 'losing' (we haven't been defeated yet!) the game is only interesting! Now we can figure out what we did wrong from the beginning and why we can't win, which is maybe more valuable than actually winning.

The situation is tough. 2 agressive, non techies against a peacefull, financial continent. I don't think the land was very good either.

I played a shadow game a little further then we are now. I might did a little better, but that's unfair since I started somewhat later and had pre knowledge.

Point is I attacked much sooner (early axe) and dominated the continent sooner. Although I was still fighting with maces when i stopped. But I must say I don't know if I can win that game either, maybe I will continue it. The settings are tough and my only hope would be to go diplo or nuke them to death. Cathy was incredible rich and relgious.

Aelf, I hope you will go on and maybe try for a diplo win (go free religion). However, I hope you or maybe someone else will have the time to start another Emperor Thread. I would like to myself, but I lack the time and therefore appreciate Aelfs (and Sisiutil) very much.

For me the game is not about winning, but about learning. When I think I can easiliy win I find it even hard to finish a game.

 

[jgf1979]

It's been a great thread aelf, and I've learned a massive amount. I've now comfortably made the jump from Prince to Monarch on the back of all my new knowledge

Hope you have another go soon!

 

[Strobe]

Ael,f it's been a useful thread and you cant win them all ! I would look forward to another one if you had the time.

If anyone has a shadow game where they did win, it would also be very useful for a summary or write up.

 

[Poodlebrain]

I lost my shadow game despite popping animal husbandry and masonry from goody huts while still researching bronze working to start the game. I thought I had every advantage a player could possibly imagine in saved research time being able to get the sheep, cows and gold mines into early production. I got Code of Laws first and was the only one to found a religion on the continent. Without ruining my economy I was able to expand such that I had a monopoly on horses.

All along I thought I was doing a great job of first dominating, and then capturing and controlling the continent. Then I got visited by Roosevelt, Catherine and Frederic all within about ten turns. They were way ahead of me in the tech race. I gave up after Roosevelt landed on the west coast of the continent with riflemen and cavalry two turns after I signed a humiliating peace treaty with Catherine, who took over the entire east coast of the continent with her grenadiers and knights.

I got taught, once again, the lesson that when the AI civilizations cooperate with each other their advantages are multiplied so any delays in research or edconomic growth are very costly. The fact that the civilizations on the other continent were cooperating instead of fighting was beyond my control, or Aelf's in the actual game.

Looking back at the start of this game, and thread, I can't see any compelling reason to adopt a strategy different from that chosen by Aelf, my variations were fairly minor and mainly in the execution rather than from a conceptual perspective. While we may not have been doomed by our initial planning, we certainly chose a path that played right into the hands of the civilizations on the other continent. Somehow, I doubt it would have been possible to be cooperative enough with Kublai and Napoleon, given their aggressive trait, to keep pace with the development of the other continent.

It took balls for Aelf to play this game in public, and I still can't find reason to call any of his decisions unreasonable given the information available. Obviously there were things I would have done, and actually did, differently, but no obvious major errors. Suffice it to say I'm glad it wasn't me playing this game in front of an audience because I would have looked like the ultimate horse's ass when I went from thinking I was on top of the world to getting punked by Catherine, and shortly thereafter acknowledging defeat.

Aelf, I hope you try this again as I appreciated being able to use you as a yardstick against which to measure my play. I was awed by your use of diplomacy, the city gift to Kublai was something that caught me completely by surprise. It was a real eye opener for me, and I need to give this aspect of the game much greater attention. Thank you for the effort.

 

[King Monkeyman]

I also had fun reading along, please do this again!

But one question, How does one get the other continent to stop working together and start fighting? Can it be done? This is one thing that really annoys me in my games is the AI are all buddy-buddy with each other and it's really tough to drive wedges between them.

--kmm

[edit: when you do your next one, can you arrange more of the soap-operaesque cat fights???]

 

[Pegasus82]

Aelf, thanks for a great thread. Like others who have posted here, you have also helped me to make a jump in difficulty (from Noble to Prince).

This is just the kind of thread I was looking for when I came to civfanatics to improve my level of play.

I understand that this was a particularly difficult game scenario for you to defeat, and really hope that you can find the time and motivation to have another go.

 

[kniteowl]

I lost my shadow game despite popping animal husbandry and masonry from goody huts while still researching bronze working to start the game. I thought I had every advantage a player could possibly imagine in saved research time being able to get the sheep, cows and gold mines into early production. I got Code of Laws first and was the only one to found a religion on the continent. Without ruining my economy I was able to expand such that I had a monopoly on horses.

All along I thought I was doing a great job of first dominating, and then capturing and controlling the continent. Then I got visited by Roosevelt, Catherine and Frederic all within about ten turns. They were way ahead of me in the tech race. I gave up after Roosevelt landed on the west coast of the continent with riflemen and cavalry two turns after I signed a humiliating peace treaty with Catherine, who took over the entire east coast of the continent with her grenadiers and knights.

I got taught, once again, the lesson that when the AI civilizations cooperate with each other their advantages are multiplied so any delays in research or edconomic growth are very costly. The fact that the civilizations on the other continent were cooperating instead of fighting was beyond my control, or Aelf's in the actual game.

Looking back at the start of this game, and thread, I can't see any compelling reason to adopt a strategy different from that chosen by Aelf, my variations were fairly minor and mainly in the execution rather than from a conceptual perspective. While we may not have been doomed by our initial planning, we certainly chose a path that played right into the hands of the civilizations on the other continent. Somehow, I doubt it would have been possible to be cooperative enough with Kublai and Napoleon, given their aggressive trait, to keep pace with the development of the other continent.

It took balls for Aelf to play this game in public, and I still can't find reason to call any of his decisions unreasonable given the information available. Obviously there were things I would have done, and actually did, differently, but no obvious major errors. Suffice it to say I'm glad it wasn't me playing this game in front of an audience because I would have looked like the ultimate horse's ass when I went from thinking I was on top of the world to getting punked by Catherine, and shortly thereafter acknowledging defeat.

Aelf, I hope you try this again as I appreciated being able to use you as a yardstick against which to measure my play. I was awed by your use of diplomacy, the city gift to Kublai was something that caught me completely by surprise. It was a real eye opener for me, and I need to give this aspect of the game much greater attention. Thank you for the effort.

True that

I think next time when playing on a continent with Two or less AIs especially if their agressive that we should beeline to Optics (After Alphebet) for Caravel in order to stay on par with tech with the AIs on the other continent. That's the ony thing I can think of in order to compete on emperor with the AIs having a HUGE tech lead while being on a small Continent. Althought I usually beeline to optics if I'm Alone on a continent isolated. Gives Us more reason to beeline to Optics sooner next time I guess.

 

[voek]

True that

I think next time when playing on a continent with Two or less AIs especially if their agressive that we should beeline to Optics (After Alphebet) for Caravel in order to stay on par with tech with the AIs on the other continent. That's the ony thing I can think of in order to compete on emperor with the AIs having a HUGE tech lead while being on a small Continent. Althought I usually beeline to optics if I'm Alone on a continent isolated. Gives Us more reason to beeline to Optics sooner next time I guess.

That realy depends on the Leader we play, resources available and size of the both continents, not to mention the opponents facing.

The problem with beelining to Optics is the AI seems to like to do this also. Even if you succeed in getting optics before they do (difficult without good tech trade), you won't have many usefull techs to trade for.

I think the solution will somewhat be in the middle of early expansion (early axe) for city's, but not total conquest, build up, cottage up, build up a navy in time to repulse invasions.Offcourse I am now speaking of the current game and not any hypothetical new game. Based on my own shadow game experience.

 

[aelf]

Thanks for your continuing support, guys. I think I was a little harsh. Well, I usually play at the end of a day and it's very demoralising, especially when you're tired, to find out that you can't win the game you've put so much effort in. Worse, this is a game posted online that is supposed to showcase gameplay at a higher difficulty level, and the first one I attempted at that. Losing it is certainly embarassing and I was anticipating the condemnation that was to come from the veteran players, considering the controversy during the early game.

Not only was there no condemnation, words of encouragement poured in. That certainly lifted up my spirits. Thanks again, people. I was thinking of playing it out till the end, to see how and when we lose, if we do (all the evidence seems to point that way). But I thought it would be ridiculous if no one was interested anymore and I've discredited myself too much to continue any Emperor's Challenge.

Seeing the response, however, I feel that the least I can do is to go on with this game till the end, maybe finish it in 2 additional rounds and go down fighting if we must. Bear with me, as I would like to see how much a continental conqueror can catch up with the rest of the world. Agreed? Regarding future Emperor's Challenge, I might not start another one at least until I've bought and gotten used to Warlords. Considering not everyone (including myself) would buy the game at once, there might be a few weeks' lapse before I decide to start another Challenge.

Anyway, updates from the last round coming up.

 

[futurehermit]

Yay Looking forward to the emperor master's challenge: warlords version. woot!

 

[Petrucci]

I've read before when you encounter this situation one thing that will help is declare war on the leading civ, and raze the coastal cities to the ground. What I read was it will stiffle their commerce badly. I have no proof that this works or is even adviseable.. like you have macemen and your opponent has calvery (or gulp cossaks!) You did give talk of going down in a blaze of glory! Then again you have a love feast over there, but, who knows? May be worth it? Maybe worth if for academics and future applications in the least?

hehe anyway don't beat yourself up, its just a game and this is fun. The mean people are just jerk faces if they would try to say something nasty!

 

[futurehermit]

My advice for the fallout of this game:

1) Gain control of your continent
2) Cottage spam everywhere
3) Try to target techs AI doesn't have wherever possible
4) Try, if at all possible, to diplomatically break up the love fest
5) Beeline to Biology
6) Grow your population
7) Try and eek out a diplomatic victory

 

[aelf]

Round 10: 1136AD - 1442AD

The bells seemed to have tolled for us in this round.

It opens with my decision to continue the war against Napoleon, who has yet to agree to pay techs for peace. Also, considering the tech gap with the other continent, I thought it would be best if we took control of the continent as early as possible and start to build up to catch up.

Marseilles fell easily, and after that Lyons.



With Paris this close to danger, Napoleon was willing to give more concessions:



I decided to spare Paris for now, since I was not prepared to continue to campaign against Kublai just yet and Paris would be engulfed by Karakorum's capital if I don't capture the Mongolian capital quickly after that.

The war ended just as WW was beginning to affect our empire. We have been researching Paper to make push for Printing Press, which should help our economy (praying hard that we can trade it to one or two AIs on the other continent). I had to make a trade with Paper:



That was the best trade I could get for it. I thought we needed Theocracy to start building a strong army to prepare for the massive campaign coming up.

And once the first new unit was about to be built, I made a civic change:



Bless the Spiritual trait at such a moment. From then I was to alternate between OR and Theocracy a few times to help with either building production or unit exp in the cities with Christianity. Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to build missionaries in between to help the southern cities. Have to rebuild the economy and start the war asap.

Anyway, Old Khan is now so friendly that he agreed to give us some aid when I asked him for 100 gold out of desperation (slow-moving research). Catherine agreed too later on, after I've agreed to give her my world map and a resource for free, but now she's being the usual annoying AI:



Frederick did it too a while later:



The continent is now no longer ours alone And these leaders are Creative (double )

Meanwhile, a Prophet was born in Kumbi Saleh. Now the decision to give away Orleans seemed to be a bad idea. However, it would have been engulfed by Karakorum and difficult to defend when war broke out. And a shrine there wouldn't make much of a difference there until we could spam Buddhist missionaries anyway.

Sadly, we couldn't beat anyone on the other continent to Printing Press, and I could only get quite a lousy deal with our usual partner:



The best deal possible, and it's looking rather depressing. But, anyway, it's soon time for war again.



Napoleon managed to churn out a few maces in a hurry and killed one of our forest-covered maces and two axes. We lost quite several catapults in the process, but...



Now Napoleon only had one small city left in the middle of the continent, and I decided to let Kublai finish him off for free, even as I signed peace with Napoleon.



Avignon was too far from my forces and too insignificant and difficult to defend later on to be worth the several turns of extra WW.

[to be continued... dinner time now]

 

[futurehermit]

Aww! Too bad the damn AI had to settle on your continent, that sucks!!!

But, on the plus side, if you can limit their expansion and keep them friendly, you can take our their cities and force them to come across the pond if they want to attack you...(i.e., hopefully have the opportunity to build some navy...)