The Emperor Masters' Challenge

[Murky]

Nice work. There's the possibility that other continent is fairly small or mid-sized so it may just be worth playing it out to see if you can win. You might consider attempting to flip those cities they built on your continent by spamming missionaries and building temples, monasteries and cathedrals.

 

[futurehermit]

^^Yeah, good idea, if you can culture flip them, you don't have to declare war, nice

 

[Murky]

Another thing is if one of the AIs can still found a new religion it might switch creating a rift between the civs on the other continent. Are there any left?

 

[aelf]

[continued from the previous page]

No, there are no religions left, I believe. I remember Islam was founded quite some time ago. Not sure about the other AI, but we know at least 3 of them are Hindu, so that's bad enough. Anyway, to continue the story after a lengthy break...

It's peace then, for quite some time as I prepared for war against Kublai, and Cathy had settled yet another town on our continent:

This just sucks I could do nothing about that small piece of land with no economy to speak of. Printing Press didn't help us that much, and we took long enough to get Education. Liberalism, by the way, was discovered before we finished Printing Press.

I switched to Theocracy again and the core cities, which had been building economic stuff are back on units. The big northern cities are Christian now, by the way, so they are enjoying the religious bonuses.

Soon, I got my first peek at the other continent:

This is where I really lost heart. Grenadiers when our maces haven't seen that much action. On the next turn I traded Education for Feudalism, Music and some gold. Look at the tech tree now:

Ok, I won't analyse the bad situation now because I don't have much time, but it's quite self-evident.

Just take a look at the GNP:

Power:

And how we stand against the rest of the known world:

The map of our continent:

Kublai now owns about 1/3 of our continent, which is worrying enough. But we can take him out soon, I suppose. However, the war might be costly and it won't get us Domination by the looks of it. We have to hope to be able to catch up with the other continent, or die trying our best.

Any comments on the situation now?

PS: Sorry, I didn't save the game properly because I thought it was lost and just closed it in frustration. The autosave is from one turn before, though.

EDIT: Roosevelt settled a city near Kumbi Saleh on the tundras, now that I looked.

EDIT again: I've changed the tech, GNP, power and demographic screenshots accordingly and uploaded the proper save.

 

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,

no giving up yet!!! some suggested strats:

get your army set up, bribe kublah into attacking catherine or frederick. as soon as he DOW's attack him!! this will give you 1 ally on the other continent from "our mutual struggle" hopefully he'll attack the one city each has on the continent. which you can take back from him later

either way once you secure your continent, build up a decent navy to protect yourself from further incursion.. the AI tends to suck at naval battles. you may have inferior troops.. but thats temporary. focus on navy and science development.. even running specialists at the cost of troop production.

of the three roosevelt is probably going to be the most trustworthy.. if you have an opportunity to snag hinduism I would recommend converting religions.. then once catherine goes free religion you may have an easier time of getting him to join your struggle.

once you secure your entire continent.. you should be at 45-50% of the total. it wouldnt require too much conquering to actually end the game.

not that its going to be easy either.. just a suggestion for how to finish this fight. you'll probably need atleast 7-10 galleons on each side of your continent.. to prevent incursions.

looks like spacerace and culture are out of the question, diplomatic unlikely. but once you secure the continent take a look at the domination % and see if its doable.

best of luck

NaZ

 

[Jaca]

By the way, this was Standard Settings and no civ was destroyed on our continent. So who and where is the 7th civ?

 

[Andrei_V]

Dont't give up. Emperor is not so easy to dominate at once. Try something different next time, perhaps pay more attention to your early commerce, cottages, things like that.

 

[pigswill]

You're just about half way through the game. If you can snag your continent then you should still be able to catch up.

 

[Sisiutil]

It's only 1448 and I think it's a little too early to give up, even at this level. Granted, you're behind in tech--but if I read the power graph correctly, you're #2 in power, even with units one age behind those on the other continent, which is no small accomplishment. Given the way the game overrates certain things (like naval and archery units), I'd say you're more like #1. Either way, no one is likely to attack you soon, and that gives you some room to maneuver in the next few turns.

I am very interested in watching you play this all the way through to victory or defeat and hope you won't lose heart. Maybe you should have cottage-spammed more and sooner, but as others who played a shadow game have said, it likely wouldn't have made a huge difference.

In any case, there are valuable lessons for everyone following the thread to learn. I started posting the ALCs knowing I'd have my mistakes and sub-optimal play pointed out, but that's what I really wanted. At the same time, I actually find it encouraging to have experienced Emperor-level players acknowledging that yes, the deck can be stacked against you, making victory darn near impossible. Makes me feel a little better when I abandon a game part-way into it.

 

[Andrei_V]

BTW don't pay too much attention to those cities they build on your continent. The civs which build them will be usually more friendly and less likely to attack you, but you can capture them anytime when you have proper tech. You have enough land to develop.

They are not so far ahead in tech. Even if you have nothing to trade just now, you'll be able to do that in the future. With less advanced civs first, then with more advanced.

 

[Argoth]

Your "power graph" is the manufactured goods graph.

Is a diplomatic victory out of the question? If you could grab your continent and then get two of the other civs to vote for you, you may be able to pull that off. But I have no idea if that would be insanely difficult to do.

 

[Sisiutil]

BTW don't pay too much attention to those cities they build on your continent. The civs which build them will be usually more friendly and less likely to attack you, but you can capture them anytime when you have proper tech. You have enough land to develop.

That's a very insightful point. I've had it pointed out to me that I often worry too much about the AI placing cities near my territory in lousy locations. And it makes sense--why would an unfriendly AI put itself in an extremely vulnerable position? Usually it is friendly AIs who are convinced that our relations are good enough that I won't attack those weak, isolated cities.

In any case, you can always build a theatre and a temple or two in the nearest cities. I never worry about trying to flip a city that way, but I always like to see how many tiles I can "steal" through cultural pressure.

 

[Andrei_V]

And it makes sense--why would an unfriendly AI put itself in an extremely vulnerable position?

They do, too, but a lot less frequently. I even got attacked once by Alex after he built a city on my continent. I captured the city on the next turn, waited for 10 turns, and signed peace. Nothing bad happened.

 

[Jorunkun]

A couple of notes, from a longtime lurker.

1 - Good job, Aelf et al! I have been enjoying this thread immensely, because of the high quality of the posts (writing style, screenies, saves) and of the discussion. Whether you will win or lose is irrellevant to me - I learned something and I enjoyed the ride. Besides which, ...

2 - I don't think the game is necessarily lost yet. If you invest in your infrastructure and stay on good terms with the three dominant AIs until you reach military parity (mopping up the Mongols on the way), you might be able to hold your ground in a last-minute modern war. Obviously, you have to get to them in time to mess up the space race, but hey, there's nukes.

3 - IMHO, regardless of skill, not all Emperor games are winnable (without knowing the map and opponents beforehand anyway), and Continents is probably the most difficult maptype to win on ... because it can lead to precisely the setup you encountered: You are stuck on a small continent with two slow-teching nasties while the other AIs have a scientific love-fest on theirs. Even if you play your cards perfectly, the AI may just be dealt better ones.

So, thanks for all your efforts! Keep playing, and hope to see another thread like this one soon.

J.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better."
- Samuel Beckett

 

[voek]

Hmm Cathy also on top in the original gam, huh. Funny to see when you play two different games, she still takes the lead, followed by Roosevelt.

Well everybody has it's strats and insights. Mine are, domination and an intercontinental invasion is out of the question. You said it yourself, your maces are still preparing and they have grenadiers... Culture is too late, so I still proclaim diplomacy is the last option. Problem, low pop. You now are 5th in population. You will gain some from Khan, but still your 'big' city's are small. Time to grow!

I like NaZdreg his idea in getting friendly with a other AI. But if it's possible at all (what do you have to offer to bribe??) it's better to get friendly with a middle scored AI (Freddy?), since Cathy will vote for herself offcourse. You should also take into account the relation between Cathy and the prefered partner. (The worse the better.)

I don't think you have liberalism already right? Well gonna need that for free religion fast. And be pre prepared for an invasion. Esp. when you attak Khan the might backstab you. Don;t wait too long before attacking Khan. Do you have any military intelligence from Khan?

 

[malekithe]

So, I'm not sure this is still winnable, but there's definitely still quite a bit of fight left in the little empire that could. First of all, you can increase your GNP by about 50% if you juggle around your tile utilization properly. You won't need many more military units, and you can mostly use the whip for those. You need to start getting cottages up and growing your population. Especially get rid of all those engineer specialists. The AI loves to add them to your city, but they squelch growth without providing much value in return. For most of your cities, I'd say that food is the first priority, followed by commerce. You just don't need hammers very much right now. Also, I'd whip the Forbiden Palace ASAP. You can do it this turn if you want; the city's got tons of food to grow back quickly. Also, Cathy's got some GPT she's willing to trade. I'd take her up on that.

As regards Kublai, he still has a couple of techs you want to get out of him, namely Engineering and Feudalism. He may be willing to trade those for Education and then Liberalism. I say Liberalism, because Frederick also lacks liberalism, so you may be able to get something out of him as well (Guilds maybe). While you're researching toward those two techs, take the opportunity to whip a couple more troops (mostly cats and maces) before switching back to Organized Religion. I really wish you had more cats and fewer spearmen; you really have a ridiculous number of spearmen. I also question the logic in keeping exactly one spearman and one skirmisher in every city, even Kumbi Saleh and New Sarai. Get those spearmen to the front.

My plan of attack would be a three-pronged attack on Krakorum, Samarqand, and Old Sarai. Bring around 4-5 cats with each prong, along with the obligatory macemen and spearmen. You nearly have enough troops to take over Kublai (you would have more than enough if some of those spears were axemen or swordsmen who could be converted into maces). It'll be interesting, but I don't think you'll need to really devote many cities to troop production outside the odd whip when happiness permits. Of course, this all assumes one or two addional troops (probably cats, you need ~5-6 more, and maces, you need a bunch of those) whipped out of each city.

Once you've made the switch to Organized religion, start working on getting Universities in place in your research heavy cities. Get the universities to where they only require 3-4 pop to whip and then do so. You'll start getting the bonus much faster and can start on Oxford in Timbuktu (probably) sooner. I'd also look into getting a great person farm set up. Most likely candidate is Rheims, but Turfan or New Sarai could work as well.

You should be able to control the continent in around 25-30 turns. After that, the focus needs to be pure economy. Get up to emancipation and get those cottages cranking. You'll probably want to mint some new workers before too long so you can really shape this land to do your bidding. Don't neglect your military while building your economy. Dedicate 1-2 cities that are going to focus on keeping your military up to date. I'd choose Krakorum, Ning-Hsia, or Tabriz. Also, when a commerce city doesn't have anything better to do, work on a catapult or some other siege engine. They're always useful.

I can see space race and diplomacy both as valid options. You're already first in land area, and after you take over the rest of the continent and can focus on growth, your population will catch up to match. A lot really depends on the tech level of the unseen opponent. If he's suitably behind the others, you could very well use him as a step ladder to parity with Cathy and Roosevelt.

 

[tuppence]

The goal of this Challenge, unlike the ongoing ALC and Lesson in Epics, is pure refinement. It seeks the opinions of the more experienced players and will hopefully give a detailed view of the best higher-level play this forum can offer. It is a medium through which Civ IV veterans can discuss strategy and tactics within the tangible scope of a game on a step-by-step basis. This way, I believe the thread would be most educational for players of almost any skill level.

Whatever the outcome of this game might be, I greatly enjoyed this thread up to this point and of course I would like to see the end of the game. I understand that the intention of this thread was not to show people how to win a game on emperor but to give everybody the opportunity to experience the game from a different point of view. To me, the more difficult it gets the more I'm interested, "not because they are easy, but because they are hard!"

 

[aelf]

Oops. Noted the mistake about the power graph. I will take the proper screenshot and correct that.

Well, the next step at least is clear enough from the feedback so far: Take over Kublai's empire asap and focus on growth. Get Liberalism, switch to Free Religion to help with overseas relations. Defeat is not that certain yet.

malekithe, you gave some very useful tips there. However, I do have to say that the spearmen are to prevent the Keshik sneak attacks that are quite damaging. I had to whip our cities quite excessively in the first war because of those and I'd rather be well protected now, including against Keshiks landing deep in our territory. Clearly, there's not enough troops for a strong three-pronged attack you described, but I was planning on a blitz against Karakorum and Orleans and then moving east and north into the other Mongolian territories with an unstoppable steamrolling force. How does that plan sound?

 

[carl corey]

aelf, guess what. I'm playing a Prince level 2 continents game, and the other continent is all Hindu with Mansa Musa on it too. I'm not that far behind in tech (mainly due to my capital popping GPs like mad) but my empire is stretched thin. I'm on the verge of getting Universities and Banks though, so I might be back in the race because of my empires size.

Anyway, just wanted to say I totally sympathize with your situation. And don't despair! (or I will too...)

 

[malekithe]

However, I do have to say that the spearmen are to prevent the Keshik sneak attacks that are quite damaging. I had to whip our cities quite excessively in the first war because of those and I'd rather be well protected now, including against Keshiks landing deep in our territory.

His Keshik force has dwindled considerably. Plus, he didn't have access to horses for a long time until he settled Tabriz. I'm not saying you don't need spearmen, but, at the moment, you have more spearmen than swords, axes, and maces put together. Take advantage of your open borders and do a little advanced scouting of Kublai's cities. From there, you'd know where a few choice spears will be needed most. Also, if you can swing engineering in a trade, you can upgrade the spears who are most likely to see action into pikes.

Clearly, there's not enough troops for a strong three-pronged attack you described, but I was planning on a blitz against Karakorum and Orleans and then moving east and north into the other Mongolian territories with an unstoppable steamrolling force. How does that plan sound?

A focused attack on Krakorum and Orleans could work, but I worry about two things: the speed of the war and the fact that you'd be ignoring most of his empire for a while, freeing his resources to launch counter offensives into your territory. If you occupy him on multiple fronts, he'll be forced to throw most of his resources at your attcking troops, sparing your cities.

If you plan on launching the offensive in about 10 turns, that should provide ample time to pump out another catapult or maceman (or both, with the help of the whip) per city. That has the makings of a sizable invasion force. Your army is already stronger than Kublai's. In my experience playing a few turns, a multi-pronged assault is definitely possible, three prongs may be ambitious, but 2 is easily possible.