The European Project: the future of the EU.

[metatron]

Ah, yes. Yet another scapegoat to blame for all the troubles you see in the world - who doesn't have the power and influence to even remotely pull it off alone. When will you call to task, in a serious way, those you CLAIM to so vehemently oppose - the reactionary, nationalistic far-right groups - and whom you have treated, strangely, with kid gloves and prefer to blame "Anglosphere liberals" for EVERYTHING they do and get away with, instead? Sounds VERY disingenuous to me. And, when will you, in a rhetorical sense toward the blame and responsibility thing, finally "look in the mirror?"

I'm not saying much about Ceta here. What little i say can be reasonable understood as an implicit claim that Ceta may have flaws but is sort of fine.
That's arguably the opposite of what the... "reactionary, nationalistic far-right groups" ... are saying about it.
You may also compare inno's views.
So in effect i am literally already doing what you so over-exitedly demand that i do.

I mean really... "Ceta is fine" as the newest alt right dog-whistle?
Ok.
That's a take.

 

[Patine]

I'm not saying much about Ceta here. What little i say can be reasonable understood as an implicit claim that Ceta may have flaws but is sort of fine.
That's arguably the opposite of what the... "reactionary, nationalistic far-right groups" ... are saying about it.
You may also compare inno's views.
So in effect i am literally already doing what you so over-exitedly demand that i do.

I mean really... "Ceta is fine" as the newest alt right dog-whistle?
Ok.
That's a take.

My last post is about your posts on these types of topics in general brought to the fore by your last post, and I think you're well aware of that and exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[metatron]

My last post is about your posts on these types of topics in general brought to the fore by your last post, and I think you're well aware of that and exactly what I'm talking about.

No, actually i don't.
The argument - such as it is - is literally incomprehensible to me.

I'm literally - however guardedly - defending Ceta, the very thing alt right people presumably condemn as "globalism".
I'm disrespecting Ms. Freeland in the process, but that's hardly the point.

Edit: I'll check up on this idiomatic business.

 

[Hrothbern]

With the EU elections nearing, Der Spiegel reported the result of a trap set up to expose the far right FPO party in Austria in illegal ways to get party funding, personal enrichment, press influencing, etc.
The FPO is a coalition partner of the centre right OVP and delivers the Vice-Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache who was caught on a secret video.

Austria's Vice-Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache has been filmed appearing to offer government contracts in exchange for political support. The video, filmed secretly shortly before Austria's election in 2017, shows Mr Strache speaking to a woman who claims to be a Russian investor. Mr Strache also appears to hint at a potentially illegal donation system for the far-right Freedom Party he leads. The revelations come amid high tensions within Austria's coalition government.
Austrian Chancellor Sebastian Kurz of the centre-right People's Party is expected to give a statement later on Saturday. The video was published on Friday in a joint report by the German news magazine Der Spiegel and the daily Süddeutsche Zeitung. It is unclear who set up the meeting and who filmed it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48318195

Here the link to the original article (in English) of Der Spiegel, well worth reading:
Besides the blatant corruption, one of the things mentioned that worries me strategically is the slow coupe in many European countries to attack the national TV broadcasting, who deliver mostly good quality programs. The recipe for the far right (and right) is simple: they are going to reduce the (special) tax citizens pay for it (to make voters happy) and make it more commercial (meaning under more control of private money). Mr Strache also expressed he liked to have a kind of Orban (Hungary) control on the newsmedia.
https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...era-in-ibiza-secret-recordings-a-1267959.html

 

[uppi]

With the EU elections nearing, Der Spiegel reported the result of a trap set up to expose the far right FPO party in Austria in illegal ways to get party funding, personal enrichment, press influencing, etc.
The FPO is a coalition partner of the centre right OVP and delivers the Vice-Chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache who was caught on a secret video.

Strache has promptly resigned after Kurz (the Chancellor, ÖVP) supposedly ruled out any further cooperation with him. There may be further fallout and this is certainly not helping the FPÖ, but the damage might be quickly contained.

Here the link to the original article (in English) of Der Spiegel, well worth reading:
Besides the blatant corruption, one of the things mentioned that worries me strategically is the slow coupe in many European countries to attack the national TV broadcasting, who deliver mostly good quality programs. The recipe for the far right (and right) is simple: they are going to reduce the (special) tax citizens pay for it (to make voters happy) and make it more commercial (meaning under more control of private money). Mr Strache also expressed he liked to have a kind of Orban (Hungary) control on the newsmedia.

They're being helped by those broadcast organisations themselves, which take themselves for granted and always demand more money with questionable reasoning.

 

[Cheetah]

With the EU elections nearing, Der Spiegel reported the result of a trap set up to expose the far right FPO party in Austria in illegal ways to get party funding, personal enrichment, press influencing, etc.

So Strache is a traitorous fifth-columnist. Will he go to jail for this?

 

[uppi]

So Strache is a traitorous fifth-columnist. Will he go to jail for this?

They were discussing crimes they would go to jail for, but didn't follow through with any of it. It comes down to whether any of this would count as an attempt. You would have to ask an expert on Austrian law for that. My guess would be: probably not.

 

[Cheetah]

Surely this is proof of a conspiracy to commit a crime?

But yeah, I doubt anything will happen.

 

[uppi]

Surely this is proof of a conspiracy to commit a crime?

But yeah, I doubt anything will happen.

As far as I can tell, conspiracy only covers a relatively short list of serious crimes, so it doesn't apply here.

 

[Hrothbern]

Strache has promptly resigned after Kurz (the Chancellor, ÖVP) supposedly ruled out any further cooperation with him. There may be further fallout and this is certainly not helping the FPÖ, but the damage might be quickly contained.

Strache in a press conference:

In a press conference in Vienna on Saturday, the Freedom party (FPO) leader, Heinz-Christian Strache, said he had been the victim of a “political hit-job” aimed at breaking apart Austria’s governing coalition, and insisted the full video would show he had done nothing wrong.
However, he admitted the video showed him “acting like a teenager” and that his behaviour was “stupid, irresponsible and a mistake”. The 49-year-old said he hoped his party could continue governing in a coalition with the centre-right Austrian People’s party (ÖVP) of the chancellor, Sebastian Kurz.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ernment-in-crisis-over-secret-strache-footage

He could be right on that political hit job. An event of 2017 shows up two years later just before the EU elections, and tensions between the FPO and the OVP were already growing. But this hit job can have many "fathers".
Resigning was inevitable for damage control of his party (Talleyrand: "It is worse than a crime, it is a mistake") and considering Austrian culture on irresponsible behaviour (incl remarks at first that it was purely private and he was a bit drunk).

They're being helped by those broadcast organisations themselves, which take themselves for granted and always demand more money with questionable reasoning.

Do you mean Austrian national broadcasting or in general ?
In Austria, a country with a strong respect-obediency culture to authority bearers (and children to parents-adults !), those national broadcasters are for sure biased to that culture. But it is their culture. They all know that that bias is there. But so what ? There are enough shades of grey that are used to say "it" nevertheless (if you can hear it). Just like a gun with a small deviation to the right. You adjust how you aim.
Do I think that bias should be less ? Yes, but I am not an Austrian voter.
In general the political-societal bias and money craving depends very much on which country you talk about.
I do not want to grandstand my country, but here the national news is not that much biased, and most of the national broadcasting time is for several differing associations that reflect the main political-societal groups. The amount of broadcasting time depends on the amount of real paying members of those associations (with a cap to have enough time for diversity). I can see the same big event during one week presented in 6 different ways in in-depth background analysis (6 A groups + some more for minority groups). I get from 6 different angles all kinds of root in-depth docs and (serious) discussion programs the contribution of Civil Society entities expert on that topic. Many good quality programs. And not the hassle all the time to check in detail what is fake, or misleading, etc. From each of those groups I know their (in fact rather moderate) biasses and their weaknesses. And yes... paid by the public (including salary caps) and not by newsmedia Big Corporate.

As far as I can tell, conspiracy only covers a relatively short list of serious crimes, so it doesn't apply here.

It is also illegally obtained material.

 

[uppi]

Rumors are that the Austrian government is about to collapse and that there will be new elections.

He could be right on that political hit job. An event of 2017 shows up two years later just before the EU elections, and tensions between the FPO and the OVP were already growing. But this hit job can have many "fathers".
Resigning was inevitable for damage control of his party (Talleyrand: "It is worse than a crime, it is a mistake") and considering Austrian culture on irresponsible behaviour (incl remarks at first that it was purely private and he was a bit drunk).

Of course it is a hit job. This was quite an elaborate trap and a long waiting time until the video was released, although some people apparently knew of this video at least a month ago. But whoever it was (if we will ever know that might produce another scandal), Strache jumped right into it.

Do you mean Austrian national broadcasting or in general ?

More in general. I had to stop watching Austrian TV since they shut off the unencrypted terrestrial signal a few years ago. My issues aren't so much about the news sections of those broadcasters, but about the "entertainment" part that sometimes looks like a huge waste of money. And specifically for Germany: There are independent public TV broadcasting organisations that do essentially the same but slightly different. Do we really need that?

Now that I think about it: It is kind of interesting that this material was given to (private) German newspapers, instead of some Austrian news organization (public or private).

It is also illegally obtained material.

True. Although I don't know what exactly the rules are for that under Austrian law.

 

[Cheetah]

New elections are announced. To take place as soon as possible.

 

[Hrothbern]

Of course it is a hit job. This was quite an elaborate trap and a long waiting time until the video was released, although some people apparently knew of this video at least a month ago. But whoever it was (if we will ever know that might produce another scandal), Strache jumped right into it.

There are a lot of possible "fathers" of that secret vid. Would really be interesting if that would be found out. But the real initiator could be well protected behind layers.

Der Spiegel.. yes. But in an Austrian newsmedium ? Why take the risk that Strache gets in time a warning ?

I think the collapse can be real or convenient.
After all, when new elections take place soon, the other parties are likely to benefit and a new period of the term is set.

More in general. I had to stop watching Austrian TV since they shut off the unencrypted terrestrial signal a few years ago. My issues aren't so much about the news sections of those broadcasters, but about the "entertainment" part that sometimes looks like a huge waste of money. And specifically for Germany: There are independent public TV broadcasting organisations that do essentially the same but slightly different. Do we really need that?

Is also here an issue.
Not that the management and the boards of those associations really want more entertainment, but they need to compete at least to some degree with the commercial broadcasters having more money.

 

[Cheetah]

It is also illegally obtained material.

Illegally? Unless the Austrian police are behind this, I fail to see how legality of the material matters?

 

[Hrothbern]

Illegally? Unless the Austrian police are behind this, I fail to see how legality of the material matters?

You could very well be right.
But it is still in the privacy sphere

 

[Cheetah]

You could very well be right.
But it is still in the privacy sphere

Most crime happens in the private sphere. All criminals know they're much more likely to face justice if they do their crimes in public.

 

[Hrothbern]

Most crime happens in the private sphere. All criminals know they're much more likely to face justice if they do their crimes in public.

I think it does depend on Austrian law

If it would have been a camera recording the entrance of a private home but also the public street and it would record on that public street a criminal offense, and I deliver that material to the police...
it is legal material to use by the NL police against that criminal, but at the same time I can get a fine for also recording the public street !

This Austrian event goes one step further.
I put the camera in someone else his privacy (no longer on my own property seeing as well the public street)

I saw from an artickle that the FPO is putting lawyers on it. We will know fast enough how Austrian law is on that detail.

So far it seems only likely to me that this material is ok to use

 

[Patine]

Surely this is proof of a conspiracy to commit a crime?

But yeah, I doubt anything will happen.

As far as I can tell, conspiracy only covers a relatively short list of serious crimes, so it doesn't apply here.

It is also illegally obtained material.

Let's be completely honest here. How often, in the post-WW2 era, does someone on that level of government face any meaningful justice or criminal consequences for anything they do in government, outside of a coup d'tat, revolution, or foreign invasion overthrowing the government they were serving in, an isolated "warlord' losing the support of their country and facing a war crimes tribunal (which, post WW2, are almost exclusively African, Yugoslavian, or Cambodian), or suffer from an engineered "shuffle of power players' in a more-or-less authoritarian country, like the PRC's "crackdowns on corruption," or "purges of disloyalty or incompetence and such" in Third World despotisms? How often do such political figures of such high office face real criminal consequences and justice in the world today?

 

[Cheetah]

I think it does depend on Austrian law

If it would have been a camera recording the entrance of a private home but also the public street and it would record on that public street a criminal offense, and I deliver that material to the police...
it is legal material to use by the NL police against that criminal, but at the same time I can get a fine for also recording the public street !

This Austrian event goes one step further.
I put the camera in someone else his privacy (no longer on my own property seeing as well the public street)

I saw from an artickle that the FPO is putting lawyers on it. We will know fast enough how Austrian law is on that detail.

So far it seems only likely to me that this material is ok to use

Well, of course. But violating someone's privacy is a separate crime, and is not a defence against a crime exposed through that privacy violation.

 

[Hrothbern]

Well, of course. But violating someone's privacy is a separate crime, and is not a defence against a crime exposed through that privacy violation.

ok
I believe you