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The European Project: the future of the EU.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    Nothing much happened in 1975 in productivity per hour, the gap remained small. I maintain my opinion that the real divergence point is 1994/5, as the authors of the piece also state.

    Lowering real wages cam be a cause of loss of labour productivity? Why? Because with lower wages there is less incentive to invest in productivity! At the very least it feeds into a vicious cycle.

    Consider the values for productivity: the gap was, in rough numbers, (32-28)/28 in 1995, versus (16-14)/16 in 1975, roughly. That's 14% and 12%. In terms of productivity the gap was stable. The result is naturally that the gap in GDP per person also remained stable. After 1975 Italy ceased closing that gap, but neither did it widen. Until the mid-90s, when it embarked in the Euro project.

    Italian inflation was stable, it was easy enough to manage. Prices went up, wages went up, and so on, it doesn't matter if it it 10% instead of 2% so long as it is reasonably predictable. There was not that much pressure at the time to embark on a single currency project.

    Less regulation = better is not necessarily true. It all depends on the regulation. If regulation is meant to enable some form of rent extraction at some stage, it will be bad.
     
  2. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    For simple folk like me it was sign of cheapness. I remember how we poor eastern europeans felt like millionaries in Italy, even when we were spending our month earnings (Italy was only affordable destination while Balkan was in war, I was in Italy 3 times as small child). Its psychological aspect, something whats overlooked but sometimes has more impact on economy than calculations. Now is Italy for us expensive and more popular destination are countries like Croatia or countries overseas.

    Regards regulations, I see some potential for good. Its just rare. I do not propagate libertarianism, these guys seem to me antisocial *******s for most of time. But in EU and in my country (yes we are not a victim, we are an accomplice) I really see unrecessary regulations, regulations just for regulations. The expecting other law which would limit your freedom, take your free time and suck your vallet is unfortunately something becoming more and more associated with EU.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  3. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    I have no idea whether or not this is related to the crisis in Italy - but nowadays, I won't discount it - but Google has, as of the last several days, stopped translating Italian language sites and articles online to English entirely. It just gives an "Error 404: Your request is either invalid or illegal. That is all that is known" message with the cartoon Google maintainence robot icon.
     
  4. r16

    r16 not deity

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    it's the prospects of the imminent oil sheikdom . That Greeks want 300 billions of Euros so that like they won't pay back the money back . Kinda unfair for me to be involved , as the Greeks were like "unjustly" sat upon as they had to remain teethless while Democracy was coming to Turkey and nobody should have felt a need for an Army . Would have posted in a more relevant thread but my searching is always a mess .
     
  5. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Kind of a silly idea to tax swimming pools.
    And 5,000 Euro per year does not seem fair to me.
    Perhaps a unicorn to make a govt budget look better on paper than it could be, evading for another year the real tax issues to address.
    If you want to address black informal money, there are better ways to use your tax system.
     
  6. r16

    r16 not deity

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    all about sterotypes , that the sunny Med people do not like to work but skim off those who do . Would have better suited a Greek crisis thread . And of course Tsipras the oil sheik to be will discover them Europeans and Europeans will be remind him of this when Tsipras calls on the Christian World when we are about to take back the islands -given for a false promise of EU ascension .
     
  7. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    That stereotypes.
    You cannot talk about a nice sand beach if you must restrict yourself to the singular grains of sand :crazyeye:
    Anyway I never said anything ever about Med people being lazy, though I only know Italy and to some lesser degree Turkey good enough to really say something about that from my own experiences.

    From the recorded statistics (Penn tables):
    Germany, France, Belgium, etc people work on average around 1,500 hours per year.
    South Europe roughly around 1,750 hour a year like many countries in the world (like US, UK, Japan) with Turkey just north of 1,800 and Greece on average just above 2,000 hours a year.

    But having an effective tax system, get it transparent, get it relatively resistant against all kinds of abuses, get it well balanced between local and national, has to overcome many resilient defenses. Not easy if you come from a strong informal economy tradition with an abundancy of civil servants keeping themselves employed.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Recall not only the disgusting "piigs" idiocy a few years back, but also that many northern europeans are stuck in that line. And sadly we are stuck with them, for the time being.
     
  9. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    I think most people in most rich countries have the wrong picture about why their prosperity is high.

    But I am afraid thaty the opposite is also true:
    most people in less rich countries have the wrong picture about the reasons why.
     
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  10. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    One is less costly than the other, though. Add to that how it becomes even costlier due to both, but only for one side.
     
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  11. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Oh, my. I knew the working class among my Southern neighbours in the U.S. were being overworked (and underpaid and undercompensated) on average by their corrupt, greedy, unaccountable corporate masters who control their government through lobbying groups to ignore their own constituents and kowtow to the plutocratic oligarchy - but I didn't know the "New Planters" were working them as long hours, on average, as the infamous "live-to-work, not work-to-live" Japanese hours of labour. :(
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    1800 hours is 45 weeks per year, at 40 hours a week. Even with ~week off for Christmas (many places of employment give nowhere near this!) and ~day off per 2 week pay period cycle a 40 hr/week job breaks above 1800 hours.

    However the figures he gives are "average". So folks with part time employment will rapidly drag it down, while those with 60+ hour weeks will bring it up. I *think* there are far more part timers than those that go far beyond standard full time, so the averages are misleading.

    Similar averages might have pretty different typical experiences for a full type employee, though those numbers all seem kind of low to me other than Greece when I do the math. Must be the part time stuff, I would love to have ~7 weeks off for one reason or another per year but it doesn't happen, nor is it close, for any full time employee I know.
     
  13. uppi

    uppi Warlord

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    I actually have 8 weeks off per year. That might explain, why Germany is at the bottom at the list, although with a much lower number of hours than I work.

    I am not sure how the average is calculated or what it is supposed to mean. For example, how is unemployment factored in? If I were to employ someone for 10 hours a week who has been unemployed before, does this make the value go up or down? Not to mention that time spent working doesn't tell much about the result of that work.
     
  14. r16

    r16 not deity

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    the term lazy is also applicable to other things , like getting others to fight your wars . There is this new claim that 92 000 sq kms of sea has been turned over to the Greeks with 5 more islands . Can't say the islands are not already amongst the 18 or 19 already given . We are like flooded with news of how New Turkey defends the interests of the country , like having hydrocarbon wells to justify acting like Arab Goverments and that 92 000 away so that the Greeks can have their own wells ? To cover that the same sources then quote old treaties which stipulate three fourths of Crete belongs to people other then Greeks , and you would know who , their nation name starts with a T and they are just barbarians , with those 15 or so islands around the same . We will not worry with smallprint and clear all the way to Gibraltar , put all those brilliant Italian Right Wingers into Med so that they too have a taste of the beauties of the sea all those loser immigrants enjoy and what not . And then Tsipras will call for a Crusade and them Europeans will all remember Ekali .
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    The motivation for that is usually something worse than laziness.
     
  16. r16

    r16 not deity

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    in this case , ı must really argue it's laziness . Considering my entire adult life has seen a very strong narrative that we should be erased fromthe face of Earth and everything proved time after time and in the end nothing happenz .
     
  17. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    Perhaps this is kind of a rant on Macron.
    I really do not understand this man. Actually I have a real bad feeling about him. He is coming out of nowhere, finds the 20 million to pay his election campaign (and NOT from normal crowdfunding) and the word "reform" is pre-progammed on his lips, for everything.

    Anyway... this article shows how he entangles the EU in domestic French affairs, somewhat under pressure of the Yellow Jackets... the climate tax on fuel.
    I think the role of the EU should go no further than enabling and faciliating the EU members to take their own responsibility HOW to fulfill the Paris agreements and targets. Every country is different, has other national political sensitivities, and the only thing that counts imo is that we get enough CO2 reduction. With pooling experts between members, with coordinating envisioned actions from members for positive synergies, with possibly some investment funding to financially weaker countries, the EU already delivers a lot. Getting CO2 taxes on airplane fuel only possible if that is done EU-wide to avoid internal competition between airports and carriers... and to fight that off with non-EU big players in the world.

    What Macron is doing is shifting actions he cannot easily agree with his own people to the EU. The convenient blame game shift for inconvenient actions at the expense of the EU to keep his own political ass safe.
    If what he says is likely to be the opinion of most EU members, there would be no need to use the public newsmedia amplifier. And it is for me still questionable if the EU should force-feed that to members that have a different approach to reach the Paris targets.
    IDK how Macron is looked upon in France (the most important opinion)... and how he is looked upon in other EU countries.
    What I do know however is that he... not France... that he is not taken seriously anymore by Dutch politicians, diplomats, etc.
    Also because he is seen as getting nowhere in France.... and that is also not good for the EU members.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  18. AdrienIer

    AdrienIer Chieftain

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    He's wildly disliked, but might win reelection anyway due to the french electoral system favoring centrists. And that's all that matters for a politician.
     
  19. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Quite a few unpopular incumbents in history have won re-election due to weak and divided opposition. In fact, that very well may happen here in Canada later this year...
     
  20. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Warlord

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    A lot of news currently ofc on the EU parliament election of May 23-26.
    Here a list of posts from the Business Live feed of the Guardian on the Q1 2019 GDP and unemployment expectations for EU countries.
    Unemployment at its lowest % since 2000, and for the EU-28 even lower than the booming years 2007-2008. Current rate 1% less per year.
    What I understand is that special funds will be raised in the coming 5 year period to tackle the high unemployment rate in some regions in South Europe. Spain doing on its own already quite good.
    It is not as strong as for example the US, not as spectactular as underdeveloped countries picking up... but all in all a fair perspective for the elections.
    The only bad news is that it will strenghten the Euro somewhat.
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    Last edited: Apr 30, 2019

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