The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Gorbles]

I was pointing out that the statement, presumable made by GinandTonic's unknown brexiter



is incorrect.

I was not alluding to migrants in general or to all the EU citizens.

Why is it incorrect? What relevance does talking about these millions of EU citizens have?

 

[EnglishEdward]

The statement quoted in GinandTonic's post is incorrect because
the UK has not murdered or deported those two million EU immigrants.

Most of them are still here.

 

[Gorbles]

The statement quoted in GinandTonic's post is incorrect because
the UK has not murdered or deported those two million EU immigrants.

Most of them are still here.

But I thought you weren't correlating EU citizens with the migrant labour mentioned? Am I missing something obvious? GinandTonic's was explicitly and specifically talking about migrant labour. You are talking about EU citizens remaining in the UK. One is not the other.

 

[Traitorfish]

Caithness has. Think about it. There is room in a sparsely populated county such as Caithness to build entire new towns
to accommodate refugees, there is no such room for new towns in an already densely populated city such as London.

With what infrastructure? What economy? This isn't a question of just where to physical place people, you have to be able to support them in some fashion.

 

[Verbose]

With what infrastructure? What economy? This isn't a question of just where to physical place people, you have to be able to support them in some fashion.

Then I think we might explore settling people in the Arctic. Plenty of room. And if you don't really know what you are doing in those parts, you are already dead – so it's not as if it will fill up anytime soon.

1 July:

 

[Kyriakos]

^That actually looks charming.
In a brutal kind of way - to paraphrase Tyrion.

 

[Hrothbern]

With Climate warming West Antarctica (near South America) is the future place to be

 

[EnglishEdward]

With what infrastructure? What economy? This isn't a question of just where to physical place people, you have to be able to support them in some fashion.

When a new town is built; hint Basildon, Milton Keynes, Letchworth, Stevenage, it is customary
to put mains electricity, sewage and water supplies in when they build the roads and pavements.

 

[Verbose]

^That actually looks charming.
In a brutal kind of way - to paraphrase Tyrion.

Oh it's all beautiful. Right up until it kills you.

It's kind of the difference in design philosophy between the Stockholm Univ. of Arts and the Umeå Institute of Design up north – if at the former place design can be just beautiful and should also preferably be functional, at the latter up north if the design is not functional, people tend to end up dead.

The only country I know that actually goes out of its way to keep regions like that properly populated indefinitely is Norway. They think the exorbitant expense manageable – but then that is part of what Norway spends all those petro-kronor they have on, so yet more special conditions apply there.

 

[mitsho]

When a new town is built; hint Basildon, Milton Keynes, Letchworth, Stevenage, it is customary
to put mains electricity, sewage and water supplies in when they build the roads and pavements.

So you want pre-built ghettos by the government? Besides morality, that is also the most expensive solution. It‘s much cost-efficient (and also benefitial in the mid-to-long-run as studies have shown) to settle them down somewhere where they can contribute to the economy.

 

[Hrothbern]

When a new town is built; hint Basildon, Milton Keynes, Letchworth, Stevenage, it is customary
to put mains electricity, sewage and water supplies in when they build the roads and pavements.

Building such "towns" alligns well with the Johnson-Sunak government policy to develop Free Port Zones, outside the regulatory restrictions of the normal UK.
Being low cost hubs for global trade.

 

[Traitorfish]

When a new town is built; hint Basildon, Milton Keynes, Letchworth, Stevenage, it is customary
to put mains electricity, sewage and water supplies in when they build the roads and pavements.

The post-war new towns were build over the course of several years, they weren't thrown up overnight. If this is supposed to be a response to a refugee crisis, what do you house the refugees in the meantime?

 

[mitsho]

During the summer of 2015 when there was a sudden increase of asylum seekers due to the Syrian Civil War, my town actually built up quickly a city block on an abandonded railway plot using a lightway build of these metal sheet boxes, but in a classy way, not cheaply. We could do this as we had the knowledge and we knew we would be getting enough to warrant the investment. Also, we had the plot available. Now just think about doing that in Caithness...

The block is still there by the way and is a good midway between the asylum centers and real apartments.

Having said that, I think it‘s sad how little public interest is there at the moment for the situation in (Not-)Moria and the refugee camps there. And to be fair, that‘s not the fault of Greece, that‘s all our own fault, that we let that happen.

 

[AmazonQueen]

During the summer of 2015 when there was a sudden increase of asylum seekers due to the Syrian Civil War, my town actually built up quickly a city block on an abandonded railway plot using a lightway build of these metal sheet boxes, but in a classy way, not cheaply. We could do this as we had the knowledge and we knew we would be getting enough to warrant the investment. Also, we had the plot available. Now just think about doing that in Caithness...

The block is still there by the way and is a good midway between the asylum centers and real apartments.

Having said that, I think it‘s sad how little public interest is there at the moment for the situation in (Not-)Moria and the refugee camps there. And to be fair, that‘s not the fault of Greece, that‘s all our own fault, that we let that happen.

Now just think about getting food and other goods to a remote area of Scotland with poor transport links.
Its not as if the UK response to the refugee crisis has involved spending much money.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ide-ex-mod-camps-being-used-to-house-refugees

 

[innonimatu]

Now just think about getting food and other goods to a remote area of Scotland with poor transport links.
Its not as if the UK response to the refugee crisis has involved spending much money.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ide-ex-mod-camps-being-used-to-house-refugees

But I can also totally see EU to an independent Scotland seeking admission: 'you'll have to scratch our back, settle this couple of million refugees we don't want and keep them there, you have lots of empty space'. They would do that.

 

[Gorbles]

But I can also totally see EU to an independent Scotland seeking admission: 'you'll have to scratch our back, settle this couple of million refugees we don't want and keep them there, you have lots of empty space'. They would do that.

Outside of your crafted fallacies, the English-Scottish government relationship is entirely functional and without any drawbacks at all~

 

[Verbose]

But I can also totally see EU to an independent Scotland seeking admission: 'you'll have to scratch our back, settle this couple of million refugees we don't want and keep them there, you have lots of empty space'. They would do that.

What EU is that? The countries that refuse to take refugees and stone-wall an equitable solution, or the ones who have ended up taking most of them in? Portugal maybe? Or is this an unknowable faceless Cabal of some sort?

 

[Hrothbern]

What EU is that? The countries that refuse to take refugees and stone-wall an equitable solution, or the ones who have ended up taking most of them in? Portugal maybe? Or is this an unknowable faceless Cabal of some sort?

For example Syrian refugees get much too much newsmedia attention to be used in for example Portugal for the abusive work in the agricultural sector that Portugal "needs" for export.
IDK reliable figures of undocumented migrant workers, but it is huge, and growing with the growing agricultural export, and anyway "needed" for the Portugese economy as it is handled now.
The gig workers needed in the tourism sector can be added (another migrant profile AFAIK, and the "domestic help" workers (undocumented elderly care and household) another profile).
I guess when all undocumented migrants would leave Portugal, the economy will collapse (at least for a while). Other South European countries in a similar situation depending on region.
This is a totally other situation than East-Europe (stone-walled) or the North-West of Europe.

 

[EnglishEdward]

So you want pre-built ghettos by the government? Besides morality,

In the UK, and some other states; there is a need for more housing to accommodate:

(a) migration from low lying areas
(b) existing homeless
(c) replacement of old and energy inefficient buildings;
(d) increasing elderly population;
(e) accommodation of refugees; and
(f) accommodation of skilled migrants (e.g. dentists)

Now (f) ought to go where the demand for their labour is.

Categories (a) to (e) could be housed in new towns.
It is not about building towns specifically for refugees or requiring
them to live there; it is about strategically building more capacity.

that is also the most expensive solution. It‘s much cost-efficient (and also benefitial in the mid-to-long-run
as studies have shown) to settle them down somewhere where they can contribute to the economy.

It may be convenient for Angela Merkel's budget to invite the refugees in and then
suggest they are distributed around the EU, they become someone else's problem;
and for David Cameron to volunteer the UK for 30,000 Syrian refugees and then
distribute them around the UK (local council's problem); but it is not the most efficient way.

The things about costs is that total overall costing is rarely done (in the UK).

It is usually about particular peoples or organisations' budgets.

If one lets the refugees acuumulate in the most densely populated cities such as London;
two costs are incurred; (a) paying for renting the relatively higher priced accomodation there;
and (b) the increased costs that all the other people already living there or migrating to work
there encounter due to the result of the excessive demand driving rents going upwards.

The UK government is very much aware of (a) but simply pretends that (b) does not exists.
Now a business case for a new town can take into account both (a) and (b) costs.

 

[Samson]

In the UK, and some other states; there is a need for more housing to accommodate:

(a) migration from low lying areas
(b) existing homeless
(c) replacement of old and energy inefficient buildings;
(d) increasing elderly population;
(e) accommodation of refugees; and
(f) accommodation of skilled migrants (e.g. dentists)

It seems to me the primary need for housing is internal migration, ie., people moving to the south east 'cos that is where the jobs are. The lack of housing is hurting most people, not least the employers.