The Frank plots sending troops to America's backyard
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amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
I just put all my money in General Motors and Lehman Brothers stock. Looking like a sweet payoff for me in the future.
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Archer 007
Rebirth
Your making the assumption that the terrorist were in league with Saddam, when it was most likely the Kurds they were working with.
Norlamand
Procrastinator Rex
This intervention should be well worth the price of admission! I'll be glued to my computer until it is completed! I hope our Gallic friends find the success they have come to expect from their past intervention in Haiti. Can they find another Leclerc and can Haiti muster another Toussaint.
HighlandWarrior
Mr Political Analyser
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Let them fight like brave men.
i doubt the rebels and the people who support them want the french there.
i doubt the rebels and the people who support them want the french there.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
That's what has been said about Ivory Coast just a year before. And today, it's the loyalists (i.e. President Gbagbo's supporters) that are deeply against France. I don't know where it will lead... what is sure is that it will be tricky.
I don't know well exactly the situation but it looks like the classic war between a leader who became rich thanks to corruption and rebels who want to become rich thanks to corruption.
By the way, they aren't there to fight but actually to stop fightings.
Sims2789
Fool me once...
don't they already have troops in the island they own off the coast of Newfoundland?
HighlandWarrior
Mr Political Analyser
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Haitian Rebels Vow to Topple Aristide
Originally: 'In Haiti, fighting dictatorship is what we do.' In the port city of Gonaives, Andrew Gumbel finds the leaders of the uprising in confident mood'
Andrew Gumbel, Independent News in UK, 2004-02-15
Haiti Democracy Project web page item #1613 (http://www.haitipolicy.org)
15 February 2004
The rebels who have taken over the Haitian port city of Gonaives are in ebullient mood. It has been 10 days since they over-ran
the town's police force, burned down the police station and jail, and threw up barricades around the outskirts of town to keep
forces loyal to President Jean-Bertrand Aristide at bay.
The police have tried to retake control just once, only to beat a hasty retreat after an unspecified number were gunned down or
"necklaced", their bodies mutilated and paraded around town. Since then, Gonaives has been left largely alone, a symbol of
defiance against President Aristide's authority. It is also a vital strategic asset, since Haiti's only half-decent north-south road
passes through Gonaives; rebel control is slowly choking off the northern half of the country.
For the rebels this isn't just a stunt. It is the start of a revolution they have every intention of seeing through to its logical
conclusion: the downfall of the man once hailed as Haiti's very own Nelson Mandela but who is now reviled for his autocratic
leadership style and utter failure to deliver any progress on the country's dire economic and social woes.
"We keep hearing the police are coming, but they will come just to die," said Winter Etienne, the mayor of free Gonaives and
spokesman for the rebel movement. "We have more than 200 trained soldiers. And we have as many arms as we have people - if
they do not have guns, they have machetes."
He and his fellow rebel leaders clearly mean business. Other towns that rebelled in Gonaives's wake have been quickly retaken
and pummelled into submission through house-burnings and threats against anti-Aristide activists, but Gonaives is proving much
more resilient.
The barricades on the road into town - buses clustered on a bridge, an armed checkpoint, burned-out trucks in the road, broken
bottles and concrete bollards - would not pose much of a challenge to a decently equipped modern army. But in Haiti, where the
only uniformed forces are police driving Toyota Landcruiser 4WDs, they are more than adequate to the task.
The rebels brandished an array of automatic and semi-automatic weapons that promised to outgun the ill-equipped police. And
more seems to be on the way. Mr Etienne led a group of journalists to a heavily guarded wooden shack by the port where he
showed off the rebels' newest asset - a former regional police chief and former army officer called Guy Philippe who has long been
a sworn enemy of the President's. Mr Philippe, flanked by 12 paramilitary supporters, came out with some spirited rhetoric about
taking the rest of the north and then marching on Port-au-Prince, the capital, to finish the job. "In Haiti, fighting dictatorship is
what we do," he said.
The civilian boss of Gonaives, Butteur Metayer, even bragged that his men could do a better job in Iraq than the US. The
occasion might have been stronger on theatrics than on hard reality, but it was the strongest indication to date that members of
the armed forces disbanded by President Aristide a decade ago are now regrouping with the intention of seizing power.
Mr Philippe is a figure as feared as he is respected. He participated in the 1991 coup that deposed Mr Aristide after his first
abortive ascent to the presidency. And he was fingered in a mysterious concatenation of events at the end of 2001 that Mr
Aristide's entourage denounced as another coup attempt, forcing him to flee into exile in the Dominican Republic.
That 2001 "coup" - suspected by many to have been a hoax mounted by the President's men as an excuse to crack down on the
opposition - is in many ways at the root of the current revolt.
President Aristide's man in Gonaives at the time was Butteur Metayer's brother Amiot, who embarked on a campaign of
repression against opposition sympathisers so severe that the Organisation of American States and other groups pressured the
government into arresting him and throwing him into jail. Amiot Metayer - nicknamed "le Cubain", or the Cuban - had more
supporters than the government may have realised, however, because one month after his incarceration a group of them drove a
bulldozer through the wall of the Gonaives prison and released him.
At that point, Mr Aristide chose to make up with Mr Metayer and put him in charge of Gonaives' lucrative customs and excise
business. By all accounts, the Cuban spread the wealth around the community, Robin Hood style, thus cementing loyalty towards
him even further. The international community was outraged that the Aristide government let Mr Metayer go after his prison
breakout. According to the Metayer family, the first act of the new US ambassador, Richard Foley, on presenting his credentials
last September was to tell Mr Aristide to put him behind bars again within 48 hours.
Right on that 48-hour deadline, on the evening of 21 September 2003, Amiot Metayer disappeared. His body later surfaced 50
miles south of Gonaives, with the top of his skull missing, his eyes gouged out and his heart removed. The town was in no doubt
that President Aristide had ordered his murder, and vowed to take revenge.
At first it staged simple street demonstrations, but passions rose as the police used increasingly brutal tactics to quash the
rebellion. People were killed and houses were burned. "Death was everywhere," Etienne Winter said. "We got mobilised and
pulled all our supporters out of hiding." Insurrection quickly followed.
Diplomats and seasoned observers in Port-au-Prince said yesterday they believed Guy Philippe might well have the manpower
and weaponry to extend the rebellion to other towns. Anti-Aristide sentiment is reaching boiling point, not helped by the
repressive tactics of the police and the so-called "chimères", armed thugs from the slums sponsored by the government to
maintain order.
Meanwhile, the Gonaives rebellion risks triggering a crisis in the north. Already towns are suffering electricity blackouts, petrol
shortages and dwindling food supplies. The rebel leaders said that if anyone was hungry they would be welcome to come to
Gonaives and join the revolution.
http://www.haitipolicy.org/content/1613.htm
Doesnt look good for the "president".
I know they're going to try and stop the fighting. I was referring to the government and rebel forces fighting like brave men.
Originally: 'In Haiti, fighting dictatorship is what we do.' In the port city of Gonaives, Andrew Gumbel finds the leaders of the uprising in confident mood'
Andrew Gumbel, Independent News in UK, 2004-02-15
Haiti Democracy Project web page item #1613 (http://www.haitipolicy.org)
15 February 2004
The rebels who have taken over the Haitian port city of Gonaives are in ebullient mood. It has been 10 days since they over-ran
the town's police force, burned down the police station and jail, and threw up barricades around the outskirts of town to keep
forces loyal to President Jean-Bertrand Aristide at bay.
The police have tried to retake control just once, only to beat a hasty retreat after an unspecified number were gunned down or
"necklaced", their bodies mutilated and paraded around town. Since then, Gonaives has been left largely alone, a symbol of
defiance against President Aristide's authority. It is also a vital strategic asset, since Haiti's only half-decent north-south road
passes through Gonaives; rebel control is slowly choking off the northern half of the country.
For the rebels this isn't just a stunt. It is the start of a revolution they have every intention of seeing through to its logical
conclusion: the downfall of the man once hailed as Haiti's very own Nelson Mandela but who is now reviled for his autocratic
leadership style and utter failure to deliver any progress on the country's dire economic and social woes.
"We keep hearing the police are coming, but they will come just to die," said Winter Etienne, the mayor of free Gonaives and
spokesman for the rebel movement. "We have more than 200 trained soldiers. And we have as many arms as we have people - if
they do not have guns, they have machetes."
He and his fellow rebel leaders clearly mean business. Other towns that rebelled in Gonaives's wake have been quickly retaken
and pummelled into submission through house-burnings and threats against anti-Aristide activists, but Gonaives is proving much
more resilient.
The barricades on the road into town - buses clustered on a bridge, an armed checkpoint, burned-out trucks in the road, broken
bottles and concrete bollards - would not pose much of a challenge to a decently equipped modern army. But in Haiti, where the
only uniformed forces are police driving Toyota Landcruiser 4WDs, they are more than adequate to the task.
The rebels brandished an array of automatic and semi-automatic weapons that promised to outgun the ill-equipped police. And
more seems to be on the way. Mr Etienne led a group of journalists to a heavily guarded wooden shack by the port where he
showed off the rebels' newest asset - a former regional police chief and former army officer called Guy Philippe who has long been
a sworn enemy of the President's. Mr Philippe, flanked by 12 paramilitary supporters, came out with some spirited rhetoric about
taking the rest of the north and then marching on Port-au-Prince, the capital, to finish the job. "In Haiti, fighting dictatorship is
what we do," he said.
The civilian boss of Gonaives, Butteur Metayer, even bragged that his men could do a better job in Iraq than the US. The
occasion might have been stronger on theatrics than on hard reality, but it was the strongest indication to date that members of
the armed forces disbanded by President Aristide a decade ago are now regrouping with the intention of seizing power.
Mr Philippe is a figure as feared as he is respected. He participated in the 1991 coup that deposed Mr Aristide after his first
abortive ascent to the presidency. And he was fingered in a mysterious concatenation of events at the end of 2001 that Mr
Aristide's entourage denounced as another coup attempt, forcing him to flee into exile in the Dominican Republic.
That 2001 "coup" - suspected by many to have been a hoax mounted by the President's men as an excuse to crack down on the
opposition - is in many ways at the root of the current revolt.
President Aristide's man in Gonaives at the time was Butteur Metayer's brother Amiot, who embarked on a campaign of
repression against opposition sympathisers so severe that the Organisation of American States and other groups pressured the
government into arresting him and throwing him into jail. Amiot Metayer - nicknamed "le Cubain", or the Cuban - had more
supporters than the government may have realised, however, because one month after his incarceration a group of them drove a
bulldozer through the wall of the Gonaives prison and released him.
At that point, Mr Aristide chose to make up with Mr Metayer and put him in charge of Gonaives' lucrative customs and excise
business. By all accounts, the Cuban spread the wealth around the community, Robin Hood style, thus cementing loyalty towards
him even further. The international community was outraged that the Aristide government let Mr Metayer go after his prison
breakout. According to the Metayer family, the first act of the new US ambassador, Richard Foley, on presenting his credentials
last September was to tell Mr Aristide to put him behind bars again within 48 hours.
Right on that 48-hour deadline, on the evening of 21 September 2003, Amiot Metayer disappeared. His body later surfaced 50
miles south of Gonaives, with the top of his skull missing, his eyes gouged out and his heart removed. The town was in no doubt
that President Aristide had ordered his murder, and vowed to take revenge.
At first it staged simple street demonstrations, but passions rose as the police used increasingly brutal tactics to quash the
rebellion. People were killed and houses were burned. "Death was everywhere," Etienne Winter said. "We got mobilised and
pulled all our supporters out of hiding." Insurrection quickly followed.
Diplomats and seasoned observers in Port-au-Prince said yesterday they believed Guy Philippe might well have the manpower
and weaponry to extend the rebellion to other towns. Anti-Aristide sentiment is reaching boiling point, not helped by the
repressive tactics of the police and the so-called "chimères", armed thugs from the slums sponsored by the government to
maintain order.
Meanwhile, the Gonaives rebellion risks triggering a crisis in the north. Already towns are suffering electricity blackouts, petrol
shortages and dwindling food supplies. The rebel leaders said that if anyone was hungry they would be welcome to come to
Gonaives and join the revolution.
http://www.haitipolicy.org/content/1613.htm
Doesnt look good for the "president".
I know they're going to try and stop the fighting. I was referring to the government and rebel forces fighting like brave men.
Bozo Erectus
Master Baker
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
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- 22,389
There are no good guys in this fight. Best would be to let them fight out among themselves and let natural selection take its course.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
You meant in St Pierre and Miquelon ? There's only 7,000 fishermen over there, it's small and still French only because they want it.
France did have troops in the Americas, but certainly not because of the U.S., which is the oldest ally of the country. Indeed, there's more than 1,000,000 frenchmen living in the caribeans ! Moreover, the European Space Center is located in Kourou, Guyana.
Something few know is that more than 2,500,000 French people live in overseas department (same status than Hawaii for the US). Just to compare, less than 200,000 people live in overseas british territories (which all have a special autonomous status, even the smallest ones like St Helena).
HighlandWarrior
Mr Political Analyser
- Joined
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hawaii is the 50th state. do you mean puerto rico?
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
No, I indeed meant Hawaii. French is divided in 100 departments. In those 100 departments, 4 are overseas :
- Reunion : located near Madagascar, 800 000 people.
- Guadeloupe : located in the Caribbeans, 500 000 people.
- Martinique: located in the Caribbeans, 500 000 people.
- Guyana : located in South America (near the Caribbeans), 200 000 people.
However, it's true 600,000 people live in autonomous territories which has about the same status than the US Virgin Islands for example. The most important of them are French Polynesia and New Caledonia (South Pacific) and Mayotte (Near Madagascar too). Their are autonomously managed, however, people over there have the full French citizenship.
I must add that actually Guadeloupe or Martinique are even more integrated to France than Corsica today since Corsica has today a slightly different status than the one of department.
HighlandWarrior
Mr Political Analyser
- Joined
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i understand now, i don't really consider hawaii overseas though, it's more in the middle of the pacific 
. The word department makes me think of "the department of agriculture". What do the french call their "department of agriculture"? ministry of agriculture?
. The word department makes me think of "the department of agriculture". What do the french call their "department of agriculture"? ministry of agriculture?
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
"Department" is a translation of mine. The real word is "département" which means globally the same in French. The main difference between the US and France is that France is not a federation. Just like England, institutions are deeply centralized in the capital city. France has been divided in 85 "départements" in 1790. The 15 new ones are results of History. Savoy and Venessan County had joined the Republic, The region of Paris had been divided from 3 to 8 departments because they were too populous, when colonization ended, regions which didn't want to become independant (mostly because of their small size) directly became "départements".Originally posted by HighlandWarrior
i understand now, i don't really consider hawaii overseas though, it's more in the middle of the pacific
Today, France is decentralizing itself. It's a hard issue since French republican traditions are still strong and not adapted to some kind of "federal" way of thinking. However, dividing a country smaller than Texas in 100 administrations isn't adapted anymore to a modern state. So tomorrow, France will only be divided between 26 regions. Of course, each one of Martinique, Reunion, Guyana and Guadeloupe will be its own region. Actually, it's already the case since we are in a period of transition. So, right now, France is divided in 100 departments and 26 regions !
And yes, indeed, we have the Ministry of Agriculture (Ministère de l'Agriculture). Departements means to us a local administration. It's not the equivalent of US states since it's less powerful and smaller though. It could be considered as the equivalent of very large and very populous US counties. Actually, French departments are less and less powerful. French people still like departments mostly because it's written from which department we come from on our license plates. However, that will be changed in 2006.
Dr. Dr. Doktor
Emperor
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Didn't anyone pick up the part were the US ambassador Richard Foley virtually ordered the execution of a key opposition member, Amiot Metayer, AKA the Cuban. His body was found with eyes gouged out, heart removed, and the top of his skull missing. This makes it seem like a voodoo killing, but special agents might easiliy have done it. Amiot Metayer was pehaps an agent from Cuba. He gathered support by relocating the wealth.
Like Bush says,"It is because they hate civilization, and freedom"
Like Bush says,"It is because they hate civilization, and freedom"
hawai_74
mac über alles
this thread is completely paranoiac 
The situation is turning out of control. Aristide took the gift that the US gave him about a decade ago and turned into a thug. I'm not surprised that rebellions are starting in Gonaives. In fact...what took them so long?
Aristide probably needs to go as soon as possible. However, rebels simply marching in and overthrowing the government could possible bread more chaos. I see nothing wrong with some international troops, even French, considering the relationship between the nations and it seems like the French finally want to play nice with Haiti.
The Monroe Doctrine is dead. It was killed when you had the Soviets move into Cuba.
Aristide probably needs to go as soon as possible. However, rebels simply marching in and overthrowing the government could possible bread more chaos. I see nothing wrong with some international troops, even French, considering the relationship between the nations and it seems like the French finally want to play nice with Haiti.
The Monroe Doctrine is dead. It was killed when you had the Soviets move into Cuba.
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