The Genesis Turn

[Conroe]

Settling in place isn't a good move because it loses the fish permanently, at least for a worked tile.

Not necessarily. If you settle in place, a 2nd city on the goody hut should still grab the fish.

 

[NZL]

But that is not a good place for the 2nd city. Only for a filler city later in the game.

Defense arguement: I almost never build my cap on a hill for defense bonus' sake. My cap is defended enough to survive without the 25% of hills.

The forest arguement: If our capital will be a worker/settler pump early game, let's give our capital the fish [and pig later], and settle the second city in the forest and do a post-math chop for a wonder over there.

The river arguement: I'll use an arguement of the "pro settle in place camp" that say: Grab the fish later. Well, grab the river later..

And moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers?

Once you've chopped the forest you still have wasted the hammers from settling on the hill where u could otherwise build a mine. Moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers. It might even gain hammers because then we'll probably postpone tree chopping 'till after mathematics has been researched. Moving 1 SE gives access to pig AND fish, enough food to let city grow AND work the mines on the hills. Also: settling in place would be very unfortunate if a resource would pop up on that hill like bronze, iron, horses, ...

 

[w00ter]

I agree with NZL, but as far as I know, resources don't pop up at your starting location.

 

[Joe Harker]

Defense arguement: I almost never build my cap on a hill for defense bonus' sake. My cap is defended enough to survive without the 25% of hills.

Thats just a bonus and can help, you never know.

Once you've chopped the forest you still have wasted the hammers from settling on the hill where u could otherwise build a mine. Moving away from the forests doesn't waste hammers. It might even gain hammers because then we'll probably postpone tree chopping 'till after mathematics has been researched. Moving 1 SE gives access to pig AND fish, enough food to let city grow AND work the mines on the hills. Also: settling in place would be very unfortunate if a resource would pop up on that hill like bronze, iron, horses, ...

But until the forest gets cut down there will be sufficent production o work with then once we strt chopping, we should have a dedicated production city. The cap should, in my opinion, always be a commercial city with cottages and five river side cottages plus pigs and silk, later on make a fine city that will grow well, and the chopping can be used to get vital buildings. Then once we get calender we can settle near the dyes, the position conroe said, which get fish and dyes and make yet another decent mid game commerical city.

 

[fed1943]

I must say it again: I do think NZL is right. One more point:
Whatever cities' specialization made, for a long time capital is our only tool to make
anything.
With 1SE place, we get high food,3 hills for hammers,and commerce from palace,
seafood,river and dyes. That will be more than enough to drive our develop.
Best regards,

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

When does the Triad expect to make the decision? I think we've heard many opinions, and both sides have been very well argumented.

 

[AluminumKnight]

Looking at these cities 200-300 turns down the road is all fine and good, but we need to consider what the city is going to do for us in the next 20-50 turns as well. Settling the river MIGHT be a better spot for a capital long term, but we need that food right away (and it's easily obtainable since we have Fishing already). Again, like has been said a few times, we can settle the forest river later.

 

[BCLG100]

That hill where you could be building a mine gets you 3 base hammers, what the hell is the point? matured cottages in universal suffrage are going to get you more. By moving the capital we get 4 more tiles we can do nothing too and for the rest of the game all we will get is 2 food and 2 commerce.

edit- why do we need that food right away? we have pig within a border pop and who knows what else? where is this dramatic need for fish going to come from?

 

[NZL]

edit- why do we need that food right away? we have pig within a border pop and who knows what else? where is this dramatic need for fish going to come from?

Settler/worker pumping

Fish gives 5 [6 with Lighthouse] + 2 for science <- pretty dramatically good tile

You CAN chop forests for that too, but then you don't have that many left for a wonder later on

 

[AluminumKnight]

That hill where you could be building a mine gets you 3 base hammers, what the hell is the point? matured cottages in universal suffrage are going to get you more. By moving the capital we get 4 more tiles we can do nothing too and for the rest of the game all we will get is 2 food and 2 commerce.

Matured cottages in universal suffrage are how many turns away? 3 base hammers (4 with rail, which will probably come BEFORE universal suffrage) for almost the entire game are what we get from that mine versus an advantage that we won't get until the game is all but over.

If we could run universal suffrage and get matured cottages within the first 30 turns then yes, you have a good point.

The capital won't need to worry about those 4 water tiles until a long time from now, and if it's that big of a deal, we can move the capital. Later in the game a palace build doesn't take very long.

As I've said 2 times already, looking far into the future is good, but the benefits immediately and in the near future need to be considered as well.

 

[Shattered]

I plan to play the save tonight and end turn one. 2100 GMT. Hope to see you there

 

[BCLG100]

Quite and the benefits for the near future are the forests that can be chopped for workers and settlers and the hills we can mine for production of the settlers and workers. The main argument seems to be that the fish gets us 2 commerce and 5 food which we can use to build settlers and workers. But the hill tile still has the same ability to build the settlers and workers with the hills nearby but also in the future a much better city.

Palace build might not take that long in the future but it is still a waste of hammers when we don't need to it.

The benefits of right now are having more forest to chop to pump out workers/settlers plus the possibilities of other things which we can't see yet whilst the possibilities with the other tile is fish with a slightly earlier growth but in the long run wont make that much difference.

You keep going on about me looking into the future but civ is all about planning- we should really have an idea on how we want to win the game already.

 

[Joe Harker]

Matured cottages in universal suffrage are how many turns away? 3 base hammers (4 with rail, which will probably come BEFORE universal suffrage) for almost the entire game are what we get from that mine versus an advantage that we won't get until the game is all but over.

If we could run universal suffrage and get matured cottages within the first 30 turns then yes, you have a good point.

The capital won't need to worry about those 4 water tiles until a long time from now, and if it's that big of a deal, we can move the capital. Later in the game a palace build doesn't take very long.

As I've said 2 times already, looking far into the future is good, but the benefits immediately and in the near future need to be considered as well.

Yes but a food ecconmy trends to max out very quickly, beyond civil service, you don't get any extra bonus until biology. Cottages will be slow off the ground but with bureacry then it will become a decent commerce city. Plus long term wise is the most important, what we do here, now will have a huge impact on the game, i just want to ensure that we have plenty of gold. the cap can only grow to size 5 before having to stop due to happy and health problems (would be eased a bit by calender), then what? Specialists, but then you can't build farms too easily around the city until civil service. The only tactic that works with a high growth city is slavery, but then why not use the huge chopping potential of the city on the hill. If you build cottages around the SE capital then you lose one gold per cottage as they are not on river tiles. It just doesn't add up. Why do we need two food resources when one (and pigs are the best farm animals) will do?

 

[dutchfire]

Settling in place is so obviously better than going towards the fish that I don't even want to bother explaining it anymore.

 

[DaveShack]

I agree with NZL, but as far as I know, resources don't pop up at your starting location.

Yes, resources can pop at the starting location, if they're the type of resource which is already there. The blue circles even seem to predict where something will pop up, when there are too few visible resources to justify the circle, though that's generally dismissed as an "AI cheats" wishful thinking type thing. I think it may be true that you'll never "discover a new source of" on a start location.

 

[Rashiminos]

If you look at it like this, settle in place when the city is fully developed gains us at least 5 more river tiles. Now if as were philosophical we aim for a slightly more SE than CE we need to cottage the capital intensly.
Thus them extra 5 river tiles when fully developed will give us what 5 base commerce compared to the 2 we get from the sea throughout the game, so already we're making less than what we'd want. 25 to 10
Then add in the modifiers +1 for printing press +2 for free speech so thats then 40 to 10.
Thats all without being in bearo, even if you add colossus its still nothing in comparison. And not including the extra hammers you gain from universal suffrage.

Whilst 'city 2' with a worked would be able to perform the early function of a GP farm and possibly crank out a couple of GS's- say one for philo one for paper or similar.

On the subject of producing units, by the time we are producing units en-masse in the later ages we'd have what, 3 hills on the coast- going to be fairly heavy going if we're planning on just using that. Whilst we might lose slighlty on having a harbour it wont be much if we can establish reasonable land routes.

Free Speech and Bureaucracy are mutually exclusive. You assume we will be in those civics instead of Vassalage/Nationalism. Free Speech tends towards cultural victory, Bureaucracy only benefits one city. I'm sure our more warlike citizens would appreciate the extra support and exp of Vassalage, or the gunpowder army-raising capability of a draft in Nationalism (complete with happiness bonus from barracks and the espionage boost).

Moving 1 SE takes 1 grassland/forest, 1 silk/grassland/forest, 1 riverside grassland/forest, and 1 river corner plains/forest, and 3 unknown tiles out of the first city's radius. It gains 4 coast, 1 grassland, 1 dye/grassland, and 1 fish/coast...

We lose fresh water access, we gain an extra health from the fish, so health -1. Instead of adding one food to the river/hill, we add a hammer and a coin to the grassland the city is founded on... 1 + 1 vs 1 + 1 Moving 1 SE gains coastal access (ships, harbors, custom houses), effectively +1 extra per trade route.

The fish can be connected faster than the pigs, and it won't stop growth in the process. The fish capital would benefit from a larger size earlier and therefore longer.

The silk and dye cancel each other out, and the forest on the silk will still be choppable for the cap. The same is true for the grassland exchange.

We have 3 unknowns, riverside forest/grassland, and river corner plains/forest vs 1 fish and 4 coast...

fish with workboats and lighthouse is 6 2
The riverside forest/grassland can be cottaged (2 6 ), farmed (4 w/biology 1 ), lumbermilled (2 3 1 ), watermilled (2 2 3), or workshopped (1 3 )

The fish can provide food for two specialists, so fish beats farm, fish beats lumbermill, fish beats watermill, fish beats workshop, and fish beats town without respect to civics.

3 unknowns 1 river corner plains/forest vs 4 coast....

 

[Oni of Chaos]

Edit: Nevermind ><

 

[Rashiminos]

As Arete has been founded in the 1SE spot, this discussion is a bit moot.

 

[Vandal Warlord]

Wow, just looking back at Turn Uno. Wierd.