The GOTM Scoring System

Should the scoring system be changed for GOTMs?

  • No

    Votes: 18 23.7%
  • Yes, to reduce influence of population-milking

    Votes: 22 28.9%
  • Yes, to give all victory conditions a more equal chance to win medals

    Votes: 36 47.4%
  • Yes, to favour the development of more 'moral' civs

    Votes: 6 7.9%
  • Yes, to increase the weighting given to early victories

    Votes: 11 14.5%
  • Yes, to reduce the weighting given to early victories

    Votes: 6 7.9%
  • Yes, for some other reason

    Votes: 5 6.6%

  • Total voters
    76
It seems an important issue in some people's minds is that the domination and/or conquest fastest victories also, frequently, win medals. So militaristic players often get two awards while the other VCs typically only win one. It may be a silly question, but could this aspect be neutralised by only awarding the score medals to the games that don't win fastest victory awards?
 
AlanH said:
It seems an important issue in some people's minds is that the domination and/or conquest fastest victories also, frequently, win medals. So militaristic players often get two awards while the other VCs typically only win one. It may be a silly question, but could this aspect be neutralised by only awarding the score medals to the games that don't win fastest victory awards?

Interesting idea and I appreciate the thought behind it.

For me personally, no that wouldn't solve it. The issue for me isn't just that militaristic victories are necessary to win the medals. It's that if you read down the list of results for a GOTM you'll often see militaristic victories virtually monopolizing the top 20, 30, etc. places, and I think that's devaluing the other kinds of victory condition, as well as constraining playing style. For example, I've played at least two GOTMs where I've gone for a militaristic victory (domination or diplomatic-via-conquering) even though I'd have preferred not to, because I'm following the scoring system and trying to get a half-decent placing, given how the scoring system works. (And I'm not remotely a top player by any means - my highest placing ever was 47 - so this isn't just a top-player issue).

Besides, it would seem a little odd to deprive someone of a medal on the sole basis that they managed an additional achievement too (fastest finish). :crazyeye:
 
I voted No, for pretty much the reasons that Obormot put forward. There's no scoring system that can't be milked. (At least not any scoring system that isn't based solely on speed. And we alrady have awards that are based entirely on speed, so there's no need to replicate that.) If we try to change things by discounting some factors that currently loom large in the scoring or emphasizing other factors that aren't as important, then that will just lead to different styles of milking. At least if we leave things as they are now, scores in the GOTM games are directly comprable to scores in non-GOTM games.

There's certainly a competitive aspect to GOTM. I think everyone who plays wants to place as high as possible in the various rankings. But it seems to me that this desire to change the scoring system reflects an idea that GOTM scores ought to be an objective measure of who plays the game best. I don't think that's possible, because there's no objective standard to measure by. We all have different ideas about what makes for the most impressive, most enviable, victory.
 
The only way I see to balance the scoring between the different Victory conditions is to find mutually exclusive aspects of the different victory conditions and play styles that can be scored in some equivalent manor.

Replace one score statistic for another depending on which is better. What are you getting instead of land or pop when you work toward non-military victories? Could we swap Culture, Science, or UN Votes for land or pop.

The question is whether anyone could agree on what is an equivalent achievement. With all the variables of map, difficulty, opponents, etc., that can influence different stats, it may not be possible.
 
perhaps for diplo victories, replace pop with the number of foreign votes you got for the win. That'd make a big difference in diplo scores, as players who win by getting the AI to like them and vote for them, rather than using it as a backdoor victory should tend to score higher(due to most votes being from AI, not yourself)
 
The general consensus seems to be that GotM games unfairly advantage Domination/Conquest victories, and disadvantage peaceful victories.

What about basing the score on the following factors to balance out the score:

  • Adjusted Population
  • Adjusted Territory
  • Average Culture
  • Technological Advancement
  • World Opinion

Adjusted Population
The population score would be based on the total population of your civilization, though only cities that have been in your possession (out of conquest revolt) for at least 11 turns, with that city's population "score" being reduced by 10% for each turn less than 10 that it's been in your possession down to receiving no score for a city that's only been in your possession 1 turn. So a newly founded / conquered city would take 11 turns before its population counts fully toward the score.

For example, if a player has 20 cities of population 5 each (100 base points) but two of the cities were founded four turns ago, the adjusted score would be 90 (18 * 5) for the cities that have been in possession for a number of turns, plus 10 (2 * 5) modified to 3 (10 * 30%) for only being in possession for 3 complete turns, giving a total effective population score of 93.

This would prevent the milking that so drastically inflates some scores.

Adjusted Territory
This would follow the same pattern as the population, where a square's value appreciates over 10 turns of possession to reach its full value. This is also to balance out any milking that may occur.

Average Culture
This is calculated to represent the total number of culture points per point of population, using the adjusted population score above (since newly founded/conquered cities have no culture, they shouldn't bring the score down).

Technological Advancement
You receive a score based on the total number of beakers your civ has produced, with bonuses for each spaceship part completed.

World Opinion
This is a factor that would make playing Switzerland worthwhile, in that you start with 0 world opinion, and get points for each green + you have and lose them for each red -that each remaining civ gives you. In a conquest game, you'd get 0, but in a diplo game, you could likely get enough of a boost from this to offset a lack of population and territory.


Conclusion
Obviously, it would need to be balanced to determine exactly what score you'd get for each population point or what the spaceship bonuses would be, but I think that it could serve to balance the CivIV scoring model enough to be allow players to be competitive regardless of differences in playing style, and focusing purely, but more comprehensively, on the civilization itself.
 
The wide array of suggestions on how to adjust "score" to equalize Victory Conditions just emphasize that it is very difficult and I would contend-next to impossible. I would further suggest that with the imperfect scoring weights and multiple ways to cheat (i mean milk :>), high score just doesn't mean that much to me. A single catagory of highest score (for what ever way victory can be achieved) should suffice and satisfy the pinball score set. In each game all Victory conditions (except 2050 which could be high score) should be awarded metals based entirely on earliest victory achieve when compared to all other competitors who won the game with that same Victory Condition. No higher math or assumptions need be made. Granted there are different ways to achieve each type of victory (Diplo backdoored from domination for instance) but that is what stratagy is for. Best timed victories on different maps styles can even be included after a period of several games.
As they say compare apples to apples if you want to find the best apple. Best of the fruit just doesn't mean much. Just my 2 cents.

dagnabit!
 
Like Deja stated, culture could be another factor in computing score. If culture shuld be added to calculation of score, other four already existing parts will have less weight and different wins would be more equalized. Of course there is the problem with setting max culture, but this number could probably be connected with max population somehow. For reaching max pop you have to have large cities, which are usually founded early in the game and thus can reach higher level in culture.

Additionally, weights could be changed in favor in technological advancement.
 
The biggest problem any proposed changes to the scoring system will have, is opposition by people who prefer Domination and Conquest VCs. Seeking to diminish their scoring advantages and replacing them with ones that are sub-optimal for those VCs and more optimal for other's favorite VC is a losing proposition. We need to add equivalent scoring mechanisms for the other VCs.

So what drives the other VCs? What is a good measure of a superior victory for the other VCs? It has to be something that you can do a ratio of the players value vs. the some total possible in the game. That's how the other scores are calculated and that part seems to work okay.

I have a few ideas but they need a little work:
  • Culture seems pretty easy. You have the Total :culture: of the player vs. that of all players in the game. Use that instead of pop if it would score high than the pop score for culture victories. Since culture also gain you land maybe keep land for these VCs.
  • Spaceship is a science & production based victory condition. You have total :science: and :hammers: of the player vs. that of all players in the game. Again replacing pop and land scores if greater for SS VCs.
  • Diplomatic is more difficult. Votes are biased because you need x% of them to achieve victory so that ratio is less useful. Someone was taking about using diplomatic +/- factors, which seems promising. What would be to best relations you could have? (We got to have something to do a ratio against.) What would be a good second measure? Trade? Religion?
Does this approach make sense? By letting each of the VCs do what it does best, you can milk your favorite VC to your heart's desire. :D

IMHO, the high score medals should be about playing your victory condition the best way possible while maximizing your score. If you don't like to milk, I say, tough. If you really want a gold medal, you gotta work for it. Otherwise, play for fastest finish awards and quit whining. :mischief:
 
My issue with milking is that it's exploiting a flaw in the score calculation of the game. It's not a measure of who can play the game the best, but rather who can trick the score calculator the best.
 
I think we should consider milking as a completely different 'problem' than the inequality in scoring between victory conditions. I think milking is a minor phenomenon(unless we have a lot of people come in here and say that they do indeed do lots of milking in their game). Plus, it will always be possible to milk a game, no matter what the scoring system is.

The real problem with the scoring system is that even with non-milked games there's no way a cultural/SR/diplo victory would every compare in score to a domination/conquest game that finishes in the same time frame. I think Denniz has had the best train of thought so far for any changes in the scoring system.

There will always be opposition to the thought of diminishing the scores someone gets for a certain victory condition(of which domination and conquest are the ones being considered right now), and so the best thing to do is instead of diminishing the scoring of the 'best' scoring VC, give each VC its own 'formula' where the points given are based on the most important aspects of each victory condition.

I like Denniz's thoughts on the modifications in the above post are great, although I still think my thought for diplo is better than his. Sure, relational modifiers are good, but its entirely possible to just keep everyone you are not at war with happy until you kill them, in which case a backdoor diplo will still score as well or higher than a true diplo.

A domination generally requires 50-65% of the world's population to trigger, so I see no problem with giving a diplo victory equal weighting for the AI population that votes for you, since it requires around 63% of the world's pop for you to win. Perhaps give half weighting for your own population, so that larger empires that win diplo victories don't automatically lose to bigger empires.
 
At the moment I am OK with the current scoring system, but as soon as somebody can come up with something similar to the Jason system in civ3 I would appreciate that in Civ4 as well.
My goal is certainly to get all the fastest finishes but so far I'm playing not good enough for these, but I keep trying.
 
Denniz said:
IMHO, the high score medals should be about playing your victory condition the best way possible while maximizing your score. If you don't like to milk, I say, tough. If you really want a gold medal, you gotta work for it. Otherwise, play for fastest finish awards and quit whining. :mischief:

That's the whole point, though. Domination victories do not have to be milked. Someone can go for a fastest finish domination victory, and even if they fail to win the award, they still have a good chance to win one of the top score medals. Your suggestions would require milking which puts you out of the running for the fastest finish award immediately. The point is a 1700AD spaceship victory should blow away the score of a 1800AD spaceship victory, no matter what. That's not the case, though.

So if I were to change the scoring for culture/space/diplo games I would make it so the early finish bonus was at least 90% of your score, if not 100%. You still run into the trouble of balancing the numbers between a peaceful game and a warmonger game, which would depend on the map type, difficulty level, etc. So I go back to what I said earlier...I don't think it's worth the trouble. I'll just pretend that the medals do not exist and the only rankings are the speed rankings.
 
Shillen said:
The point is a 1700AD spaceship victory should blow away the score of a 1800AD spaceship victory, no matter what.

I tend to agree with that. But I'm not sure that a 1700AD diplomatic victory should blow away an 1800AD diplomatic victory, no matter what.
 
My personal opinion is that we should do away with the whole gold, silver, and bronze thing. Instead, we should just give another award to the highest scoring victory. This award would be on the exact same level as the fastest finish victories and could occasionally overlap. The award would, in theory, go to the best player at maximizing score. In my opinon, the second highest scoring player deserves no more recognition than the player who completed the second fastest spaceship. Score is not special enough in this game to warrant awarding second place.

Also, I really don't think there is currently any way at all to compare different victory conditions. For all intents and purposes, they are completely different games. When I start up a GOTM I decide right off the bat, "Am I playing a space race game, domination, conquest, culture, diplomatic, or score?" Depending on what I choose I will play the game completely differently. It just doesn't make sense for my cultural game to be compared to a conquest game. We were playing toward completely different goals.

That all being said, were I rewriting a scoring system, I would use the following factors (weighted in some way): Total commerce (all commerce currently going toward gold, science and culture) less expenses, total production capacity (hammers), total food output, and turns remaining till 2050. Those factors should be all that is required to determine the quality of a given empire. Everything in the game is purposed to increase one of those four factors. You don't discover tech just for the hell of it, you discover it so you can improve some aspect of your empire or achieve an earlier victory. You join an artist to a city in order to work more tiles or speed a culture or domination victory.

Again, though, I keep coming back to the fact that the main purpose of the game is to win as efficiently and quickly as possible. Everything else is just a means toward that end and should be treated as such. In a race you award the athlete who finishes first, not the one that best meets some arbitrary definition of athleticism.
 
Obormot said:
I am sure that a cultural victory can get a very decent score even with the current system, it is just that nobody has ever tried a milked cultural victory.

I'm not so sure (though now you've put the idea in my head I'm very tempted to try it in the next GOTM ;). I think there are two problems, both of which you hinted at in what you said.

1. The way you would probably do with the current scoring system it is that you'd go on a conquering spree early on, then once you have a lot of the world wrapped up, you'll switch on your culture. In other words what you've really done is a militaristic victory, but then diverted to culture at the end.

2. Although your final score doing that might be decent, it would still be a lot less then if you'd gone for a domination victory with the same initial gameplay. Why? Well look at your position just before you switch on the culture. You have a lot of the world under your control. For the sake of argument let's say it's 100K. Now Now in my experience if you carry on conquering till you activate domination, you'll be probably able to at least hold that score: The gradual loss of bonus with each turn is compensated by your population/land growth. But if you switch on culture instead, your score immediately starts to drop with every turn that passes. If you had 100K before your culture phase, you sure won't do by the time you win the game.

So even if your premise is true, it doesn't change that the current system is is too biased for militaristic victories.

Obormot said:
A factor of 6 or even 3-4 would break the system completely in favour of milked culture wins. A factor of about 1.5 sounds more reasonable, but we need to see a milked culture game first, before we can come up with a more precise number.

Agreed. I was just throwing in numbers for the sake of argument. I have little idea what a sensible figure would be.

Obormot said:
Even then you still have 2 problems:
1. Even while going for culture you'll need to conquer the world and milk.
2. Since you'll have to do #1 you will have to sacrifice the speed of the victory a bit, therefore winning medals will require suboptimal play from the cultural point of view.

These are exact same problems that Civ3 GOTM Jason score has.

Point 1 is illustrates why I think the pop element of the score should be reduced. (ISTR reading a discussion of the scoring system in which it was stated that pop counts for twice what each other factor counts. At the very least IMO pop should be the same as each other factor, no more).
 
Many of these posts make me chuckle. I share the view many have expressed that the current system still has incentives for milking, and warlike games are dominant in getting medals on most maps. However, any attempt to tweak the underlying scoring system just gives rise to a situation in which another set of perverse incentives to maximise score rather than play the game well arise.

gotm has always been about score in one form or another, which (although comparison games are what keeps me playing Civ) is why my dalliance with it has been fleeting over the years. A true test of civving is how fast you are able to achieve a given goal, not how good you are at abusing the scoring system.

If you want gotm to be about player skill the solution is clear - just use speed rankings. Over a few games (civ is a game with some luck elements of course) this will give the best results. Better yet it requires no maintenance by staff that are already giving up free time to process the results. Also, players will naturally even out across the victory types over time (as its essentially relative assessment), ensuring a playerbase for each and maximum choice for players.

It's basically a no-brainer on logical grounds, it's just the inertia in score based gotm that prevents it. I know I am probably about to get it in the neck from the traditionalists! :)
 
Shillen said:
That's the whole point, though. Domination victories do not have to be milked. Someone can go for a fastest finish domination victory, and even if they fail to win the award, they still have a good chance to win one of the top score medals. Your suggestions would require milking which puts you out of the running for the fastest finish award immediately. The point is a 1700AD spaceship victory should blow away the score of a 1800AD spaceship victory, no matter what. That's not the case, though.

So if I were to change the scoring for culture/space/diplo games I would make it so the early finish bonus was at least 90% of your score, if not 100%. You still run into the trouble of balancing the numbers between a peaceful game and a warmonger game, which would depend on the map type, difficulty level, etc. So I go back to what I said earlier...I don't think it's worth the trouble. I'll just pretend that the medals do not exist and the only rankings are the speed rankings.
While a dom vic also taking a FF medal is always possible. A milked dom should get the medal over an unmilked one. If someone can capture both that means they are either that much better than the competition or no one was milking their score.

I forget the details but the base score is based on ratios of the required elements with the victory bonus as a factor applied to the base score on a declining curve over time. If we use Science and Hammers for base score then the earlier victory would require more of those to complete earlier. So you get a higher base score AND the better victory bonus.

Dom vic have a shot at both FF and a medal because the scoring requirements are the same as what they need to win. So instead of hamstring Dom, the concept I am suggesting is to identify the corresponding elements that drive the other victories.

Maybe we need to decide what the medals are supposed to recognize. Right now the reward the highest score. Finish date is only part of that equation. I think some people are thinking it should be a ranking of the best fastest finish awards. As long a score is a component of that, people will find ways to milk their score. We might be able to provide each VC with some equivalent way of scoring and milking their score. I doubt we will ever have a way to equate them based on relative date alone.

Jason came close in Civ3 but there was serial debate every few games from people claiming it favored Dom and conquest VCs. I haven't checkout the Civ3 forums since Civ4 started but I imagine it continues still. ;)

So maybe the debate needs to be broken down in to two different elements/issues:
  • Score equity between victory conditions
  • What do we do about milking
Rolling then together like we have been is just confusing. :crazyeye:
 
Back
Top Bottom