The Great Wonders and Projects Thread
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Like,
national wonder = everybody can build one for civ
(great) wonder = unique, only one can exist globaly
project = ???
So, what is difference between wonder and project? In vanilla project allows you to win game (spaceship).
KeeperOT7Keys
did nothing wrong
projects are for huge production related works that are not actually buildings: the Internet, Manhattan Project etc.
When a wonder is completed, it is in a city. Cities can be conquered and therefore wonders can change owners. Wonders also provide minor benefits to their cities (like culture and GPP). On the other hand, projects are always associated with a player and can never be lost. Also, projects do not necessarily need to be unique in the world.
If so, projects can model how society transforms over time (like in eu4 institutions). Like global trade can be a project, all civs can complete. Internet already exist. Then there also can be local projects like silk road (I dont know if projects can be deactivated), or transantlantic trade, or colonization. Also projects can be a stability givig effect, like Greek can have a project that gives stability after they have conquered Persia to maintain Alexanders empire (which they failed). Finaly I think religious and cultural victories make much more sense if they are projects as well and not sudden pop-ups which simply cant see coming.
Tech requirement for the Potala Palace:
Since the Tibetans tend to be so backward, I would pick a medieval tech, but have another requirement for the wonder in addition to Buddhism. The requirement would be that all tiles in city radius be hills or mountains. If this requirement is too strong (I think the only locations with enough hills/mountains are Tibet and the Rockies of North America), then require the city and the 8 tiles surrounding it to be mountains or hills. The tech could be Civil Service, Patronage or (my pick) Doctrine.
In a similar vein, the Delta Works could require all land tiles in city radius to be flat land (and the city to be coastal). This is true of Amsterdam and several other locations, but not that many.
(I just played a Tibetan game, they turned out to be surprisingly enjoyable!)
Since the Tibetans tend to be so backward, I would pick a medieval tech, but have another requirement for the wonder in addition to Buddhism. The requirement would be that all tiles in city radius be hills or mountains. If this requirement is too strong (I think the only locations with enough hills/mountains are Tibet and the Rockies of North America), then require the city and the 8 tiles surrounding it to be mountains or hills. The tech could be Civil Service, Patronage or (my pick) Doctrine.
In a similar vein, the Delta Works could require all land tiles in city radius to be flat land (and the city to be coastal). This is true of Amsterdam and several other locations, but not that many.
(I just played a Tibetan game, they turned out to be surprisingly enjoyable!)
That's an interesting idea. It would allow it to become a production focused wonder for locations that lack in production.
I know right? I like civs with limited opportunities and a focused purpose. They are probably my favourite after Polynesia.
That's a disingenuous comparison.
IIHAAETTEAAHII
Warlord
I have some suggested effects for the wonders. Note that I'm not familiar with the current version of DoC (last time I played was about 2 years ago).
Delta Works: grants +1
+1 
+1 
for every coastal levee (/dike) you control. Requires River, at least 10 coast tiles
Bamiyan Buddhas: +6
, +1 for Desert hills (and plain Hills in BFC?)
Prambanan: Opportunity to switch religion without Anarchy after foundation, +1 Trade Route per two priests in this city, +1 Free Priest
Crystal Palace: Grants +10% of the
cost towards every Industrial Era technology discovered by civilizations you have Cautious or better relations with
Nobel Foundation: Grants +1 of the associated yield
gold: for GM's et cetera) for every great person born in a country you have Pleased or better relations with, capped at 20
Alternate effect: on generation of such a GP (in a Pleased/Friendly country), get the opportunity to gain 200 towards the tech you are currently researching at the cost of 100 
Sydney Opera House:
All cities with a water resource in their BFC get +100 per water resource. Upon construction of a fishing boat, gain +100 . Lose the ability to pillage own seafood (otherwise, I'd totally exploit this to get an instant Culture Victory).
Vertical Forest: +1 for every 2 population over ten.
Delta Works: grants +1
+1 +1 for every coastal levee (/dike) you control. Requires River, at least 10 coast tilesBamiyan Buddhas: +6
, +1 for Desert hills (and plain Hills in BFC?)Prambanan: Opportunity to switch religion without Anarchy after foundation, +1 Trade Route per two priests in this city, +1 Free Priest
Crystal Palace: Grants +10% of the
cost towards every Industrial Era technology discovered by civilizations you have Cautious or better relations withNobel Foundation: Grants +1 of the associated yield
gold: for GM's et cetera) for every great person born in a country you have Pleased or better relations with, capped at 20Alternate effect: on generation of such a GP (in a Pleased/Friendly country), get the opportunity to gain 200
towards the tech you are currently researching at the cost of 100 Sydney Opera House:
All cities with a water resource in their BFC get +100
per water resource. Upon construction of a fishing boat, gain +100 . Lose the ability to pillage own seafood (otherwise, I'd totally exploit this to get an instant Culture Victory).Vertical Forest: +1
for every 2 population over ten.
Last edited:
Fresol
Angry Halfling in Green
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- 2,207
Off topic but Sri Lanka should be considered at least historical for buddhism.
rmontaruli
Prince
I was in Krakow last week and i visited this salt mine:
https://www.wieliczka-saltmine.com/visiting/make-time-for-your-adventure
I do not know Taudenni Salt Mines, but this salt mine i visited is more than a wonder IMHO.
Requirements: guild is ok, and instead of desert, no sea tiles in the city cross (the opposite of maoi), because cities near sea can get salt from sea.
Increase trade routs until refrigeration.
Interesting site, but not a wonder. It is a city, anyway.
Please no!.
Vertical forest is anything but a wonder.
I live in Milan, Italy.
I see it every day.
It is a high palace with plants on the balconies.
Strijder21
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2017
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- 87
To add on that, Mali already has a wonder (University of Sankore) while Poland does not. It could provide some quickly-obsoleting economic boost to help Poland stay relevant in the Medieval and Renaissance era while never quite reaching Industrial.
Imperator Knoedel
Simperator Knoedel
I mean, so are the Hanging Gardens, no?
rmontaruli
Prince
Not exactly.
Hanging Gardens, if still exist, you'll travel to mesopotamia to visit them.
This thing with plants on balconies nobody comes to visit, so nothing of wonder.
Force44
King
You are probably right rmontaruli in your assesment that the Vertical Forest of Milan isn't worthy the title of world wonder.
But what if multiple of those Apartment buildings would eliminate virtually all of the air polution Milan suffers and would would equal out the CO2 emission of Milanese industries to a level that complies to the Paris 2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference?
That would make it qualify as a world wonder in my opinion.
So with a little bit of imagination the vertical forests of Milan might just not be a world wonder ...yet.
But what if multiple of those Apartment buildings would eliminate virtually all of the air polution Milan suffers and would would equal out the CO2 emission of Milanese industries to a level that complies to the Paris 2015 United Nations Climate Change Conference?
That would make it qualify as a world wonder in my opinion.
So with a little bit of imagination the vertical forests of Milan might just not be a world wonder ...yet.
rmontaruli
Prince
The idea to put plants on balconies is not new. There are other building in Milan with plants and flowers and nobody called them "vertical forest".
Anyway it is not enough to put plants on balconies to reduce air pollution.
The solution is to reduce cars or convert them to electric engine, and reduce heating in winter and conditioned air in summer.
The city is going in this direction and air pollution is going down since 1970.
You can also put plants on balconies in every building everywhere, but our idea of great wonder of the world is ONE building in ONE city.
Anyway it is not enough to put plants on balconies to reduce air pollution.
The solution is to reduce cars or convert them to electric engine, and reduce heating in winter and conditioned air in summer.
The city is going in this direction and air pollution is going down since 1970.
You can also put plants on balconies in every building everywhere, but our idea of great wonder of the world is ONE building in ONE city.
I came back from my vacation in the land-that-is-always-suggested-as-a-civ-but-is-too-small-to-work-well with an idea for a modern religious wonder:
Bahá'í Gardens (Tourism, requires Judaism, Islam and at least another religion in the city) [Ottoman/British/Israel]
No instability from religious disunity
Idea: This would allow representation of the Bahá'í faith, which emphasizes the truth of all religions. It could be another effect related to having multiple religions if this one is undesirable or already in use somewhere I'm not aware.
I'm guessing there's no art for this, and I realize that this will probably spell doom for this suggestion (maybe something could be worked from the oracle model, it looks similar to the Shrine of the Bab). So at least I'll try to make this post useful by discussing other wonder-related things.
Perhaps the Atomium should give +1 Uranium, +1 Aluminum and +1 Iron. Thus it would be a way for smaller civs to access uranium and aluminum without needing to expand to ahistorical places. Uranium because the wonder represents the Atomic Age, Aluminum because it was originally made out of aluminum, and iron just for fun because it actually represents an iron crystal. Can tweak the number of resources it gives if needed.
Nalanda University was a Buddhist monastery; shouldn't it require Buddhism? (Perhaps in addition to Hinduism to ensure location in India.)
And a question: are there any long-term plans about changing culture and cultural victory? The thing I liked the most about Civ5 that's not in Civ4 is probably the tourism mechanic: the idea that you can use culture offensively to increase your influence over others, and win when you influence everyone. As of now in Civ4/DoC, culture becomes more or less useless in the late game unless you're going for the incredibly boring cultural victory, and thus so are great artists and many wonders and buildings. In Civ5, it was kind of exciting to try to increase your tourism output, or at least make sure your cultural output is strong enough that you don't fall under the cultural influence of others. I realize this is off-topic, but if something like this ends up implemented, it would give many more possibilities for wonder and project effects in the late game.
Bahá'í Gardens (Tourism, requires Judaism, Islam and at least another religion in the city) [Ottoman/British/Israel]
No instability from religious disunity
Idea: This would allow representation of the Bahá'í faith, which emphasizes the truth of all religions. It could be another effect related to having multiple religions if this one is undesirable or already in use somewhere I'm not aware.
I'm guessing there's no art for this, and I realize that this will probably spell doom for this suggestion (maybe something could be worked from the oracle model, it looks similar to the Shrine of the Bab). So at least I'll try to make this post useful by discussing other wonder-related things.
Perhaps the Atomium should give +1 Uranium, +1 Aluminum and +1 Iron. Thus it would be a way for smaller civs to access uranium and aluminum without needing to expand to ahistorical places. Uranium because the wonder represents the Atomic Age, Aluminum because it was originally made out of aluminum, and iron just for fun because it actually represents an iron crystal. Can tweak the number of resources it gives if needed.
Nalanda University was a Buddhist monastery; shouldn't it require Buddhism? (Perhaps in addition to Hinduism to ensure location in India.)
And a question: are there any long-term plans about changing culture and cultural victory? The thing I liked the most about Civ5 that's not in Civ4 is probably the tourism mechanic: the idea that you can use culture offensively to increase your influence over others, and win when you influence everyone. As of now in Civ4/DoC, culture becomes more or less useless in the late game unless you're going for the incredibly boring cultural victory, and thus so are great artists and many wonders and buildings. In Civ5, it was kind of exciting to try to increase your tourism output, or at least make sure your cultural output is strong enough that you don't fall under the cultural influence of others. I realize this is off-topic, but if something like this ends up implemented, it would give many more possibilities for wonder and project effects in the late game.
Let's change the Internet project. Currently, it grants techs known by at least two civs to its owner. It can therefore be very powerful for any civ that is not very advanced, but it requires a very advanced tech and the tech tree makes it difficult to beeline anything, which means it is usually built by the civs who need it the least.
I have three suggestions:
1) Make it a per-civ project instead of a per-world project, possibly with a bonus for the first builder (extra culture? due to the worldwide cultural influence the Internet gave the US). This way, any civ that reaches Telecommunication can modernize rapidly.
2) Keep it per-world, but change the effect so that the owner gets techs discovered by two civs, and every civs gets techs discovered by X civs (where X could be half of the civs). This way, creating the Internet helps disperse knowledge to everyone.
3) Combine both (1) and (2) into a collaborative project, as suggested in the original post. Any civ who builds it gets the techs discovered by two civs, and every civ gets the techs known by X civs after Y civs have built the Internet.
These suggestions aim at decreasing the tech disparity that tends to exist at the end of the game, where many civs tend to be stuck in the Middle Ages or Renaissance. In real life, most technologies quickly diffuse to most countries that are not North Korea. In game, we rarely get communist China because China is still discovering the Scientific Method in 1974.
(Also, it is annoying that Great Engineers cannot rush-build the Internet. I know why that is, but the Internet is clearly an engineering feat, unlike say the United Nations. And we even have people like Tim Berners-Lee as GE names! And it would help less-advanced civs to have a shot at it.)
(Come to think of it, the UN should really be a project, not a wonder. It could be linked to Great Statesmen somehow.)
I have three suggestions:
1) Make it a per-civ project instead of a per-world project, possibly with a bonus for the first builder (extra culture? due to the worldwide cultural influence the Internet gave the US). This way, any civ that reaches Telecommunication can modernize rapidly.
2) Keep it per-world, but change the effect so that the owner gets techs discovered by two civs, and every civs gets techs discovered by X civs (where X could be half of the civs). This way, creating the Internet helps disperse knowledge to everyone.
3) Combine both (1) and (2) into a collaborative project, as suggested in the original post. Any civ who builds it gets the techs discovered by two civs, and every civ gets the techs known by X civs after Y civs have built the Internet.
These suggestions aim at decreasing the tech disparity that tends to exist at the end of the game, where many civs tend to be stuck in the Middle Ages or Renaissance. In real life, most technologies quickly diffuse to most countries that are not North Korea. In game, we rarely get communist China because China is still discovering the Scientific Method in 1974.
(Also, it is annoying that Great Engineers cannot rush-build the Internet. I know why that is, but the Internet is clearly an engineering feat, unlike say the United Nations. And we even have people like Tim Berners-Lee as GE names! And it would help less-advanced civs to have a shot at it.)
(Come to think of it, the UN should really be a project, not a wonder. It could be linked to Great Statesmen somehow.)
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