The Grognards

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
LouLong,

Your arrogant insulting answer in ozymandias thread
only shows that I took a correct decision when I choosed
to leave this thread.

Rocoteh

My ... WHAT ?
OK, I finish that discussion. If you feel you have pb with me, you can PM me but I won't carry in a thread.

 

[Rocoteh]

LouLong,

So now you are acting Dr. Freud.

Okay then, we have nothing more to discuss.

Good bye!

 

[Thorgrimm]

Still no answer to my last post whats up guys

 

[Ozymandias]

Hi All,

Here's a first cut at a tech tree. For the time being, it's one era with 19 techs and 4 Era=None techs.

Three of the four Era=None Techs are really meant to limit Government types: Absolute Monarchy, Constitutional Monarchy, and Revolutionary Republic. The fourth Era=None is "Bourgeois Society", helping delineate those nations where an active and increasingly powerful middle class either existed or was developing from where latter-day feudalism remained the norm.

In approximate order, the 19 techs are:

1. NATIONALISM. This is the beginning of an historical era which would ultimately see the rise of the middle classes and the nation-state. The previous era had its apogee in "L'etat c'est moi" and its end in "Apres moi le deluge" (kindly forgive any errors in my French!).

2. INTERCHANGEABLE PARTS

3. MILITARY INVENTION -- simply that, the willingness to be inventive, often led, it seems, by those most bourgeois of military arms, the artillery and engineers.

4. (1)+(2)+(3) = LEVEE EN MASSE / CONSCRIPTION (conscript infantry; ?militia)

5. (4) leads to MORPHINE (Battlefield Medecine?)

6. (2) leads to IRON ANCHOR CHAINS (Darwin's Voyage Wonder?)

7. (2)+(3) = Shrapnel (imrpoved artillery of some sort)

8. (7) leads to CONGREVE ROCKETS (units of the same name)

9. (6) leads to CANNED FOODS (due to improved metallurgy)

10. (9) leads to STEAM POWER

11. (10) leads to STEAM POWERED WARSHIPS (Wonder = 1st Trans-Atlantic Crossing by same)

12. (11) leads to RAILROADS (worker task)

13. (9) also leads to the first "event", the northern UK LUDDITE REVOLT.

14. (13) takes us, roughly chronologically, into the next "event", the BRITISH-AMERICAN WAR OF 1812

15. (14) yields the next event, "MAIN MANPOWER POOL DEPLETED" -- inferior "upgrades" to line units?

On the right-hand side of the chart are four techs which I'm not certain how to best integrate:

16. WARTIME INCOME TAX

17. EGYPTIAN EXPEDITION ("Rosetta Stone" Wonder)

18. NATIONAL BANK (minor wonder - Capitalization?)

19. SLAVERY ABOLISHED


I hope this is a decent start!

All the Best,

Oz

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Thorgrimm
But what we need to determine is if this is a scenario or just a mod and dyo scenarios. If a scenario then detailed oob will be required. If not then detailed oobs are just a moot point and just starting numbers would suffice. Also as to putting the names in the editor i say
YES!!!!!!!!!
That is what i have been presenting this information for

Well it is actually both. The general mod about Napoleonic era + the main scenario about the period so yes they are needed for the scenario. Thye might be needed as well if other people decide to do more precise scenarios on the period using the mod as a base.

 

[LouLong]

Ozy : just a quick remark about the tech before goinf to bed (zzzz). I am not sure Battelfield Medecine shoud be used in the scenario :
- I believe it is too early in history; it would refer more to USCW or the Crimean war.
- I would not like to see French armies in Russia refilling thier strength, that would make the disaster of the invasion difficult to do.

Now maybe you have better reasons than mine to be in favor of it. ?

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by LouLong
Ozy : just a quick remark about the tech before goinf to bed (zzzz). I am not sure Battelfield Medecine shoud be used in the scenario :
- I believe it is too early in history; it would refer more to USCW or the Crimean war.
- I would not like to see French armies in Russia refilling thier strength, that would make the disaster of the invasion difficult to do.

Now maybe you have better reasons than mine to be in favor of it. ?

Your point is well taken! -- perhaps this can allow a Hospital improvement instead? (it just seems too important -- given how few techs we can use for the era -- to ignore)

-Oz

 

[Thorgrimm]

For the scenario i need a definite start date to get a precise oob.

My nominations are 1792 Formation of the 1st coalition.
1796 Napoleons accepting command of the army of Italy
1805 the Austerlitz campaign

 

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by Thorgrimm
For the scenario i need a definite start date to get a precise oob.

My nominations are 1792 Formation of the 1st coalition.
1796 Napoleons accepting command of the army of Italy
1805 the Austerlitz campaign

1792-94 would put us in the position of trying to simulate the French military under the terror; to again quote McEvedy:

"As Carnot, 'the organizer of war' supplied [...] nothing else but [untrained] men and guns the French had to attack to keep alive."

Mid-1794 would give us the Republic back under middle class control, which I think will be easier to mod around than first simulating the Terror and then the relative stability which followed.

Yet I would opt for mid 1797 as, aside from the above, (1) it gives us Napoleon in command; (2) the "messiness" (i.e., chaotic to model) conditions of the first coalition are done; (3) northern Italy is conquered; (4) Holland has become the Batavian Republic -- and became so because Moreau's troops seized the Dutch fleet by virtue of being able to cross the frozen Scheldt River (also difficult to mod ).

-- Just some food for thought

-Oz

 

[Thorgrimm]

Ozymandias i think mid 1794 would be ok as i already have the entire obs of Austria, France, United Kingdom, Russia, Prussia, Spain, and most of the German Duchies and Kingdoms, as of 1795. They can easily be retrofitted to mid 1794. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by Rocoteh
Your arrogant insulting answer in ozymandias thread
only shows that I took a correct decision when I choosed
to leave this thread.

Then so be it. Frankly, I've read all Loulong answers and yours to try to sort out what happened. And it seems to me that your tolerance threshold is extremly low. I wonder how you can live a normal life as you seem to feel insulted very quickly: don't you think you are making mountains of mole hills?
If 20% of your message are question to check if the others tried to insult you, 20% to complain about being insulted and 60% else, then I have the personal feeling that the 60% that are indeed very interesting are not worth the trouble caused by the other 40%.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by LouLong
Ozy : just a quick remark about the tech before goinf to bed (zzzz). I am not sure Battelfield Medecine shoud be used in the scenario :
- I believe it is too early in history; it would refer more to USCW or the Crimean war.
- I would not like to see French armies in Russia refilling thier strength, that would make the disaster of the invasion difficult to do.

Now maybe you have better reasons than mine to be in favor of it. ?

For the French army, the medical corps was the least organized. Some medical officers were really devoted to their task, and tried to ease the suffering of wounded. Like Larrey, who invented in 1797 a kind of ambulance. But the general feeling was a kind of indifference, like an old Grognard said "I know that nobody cares about us when we are wounded. Well! Let kill us so it is over".
Most military surgeon had absolutely no skill, and happen to go there because their wealthy familly used it as a mean to escape drafting.

So I think the area is to early for battlefield medicine.

 

[Steph]

Originally posted by ozymandias
... Moreau's troops seized the Dutch fleet by virtue of being able to cross the frozen Scheldt River (also difficult to mod ).

Could you find another example in history where a cavalry units captured an ennemy fleet during a "naval" battle ?

 

[Thorgrimm]

Gentlemen I just found some interesting information that i would like to pass on. since no one else is up at the same time as me.

CORPS EXPEDITIONNAIRE D' EGYPTE: March 1801
Général en Chef Général Bonaparte
Aides de Camp: Duroc,La Valette,Louis Bonaparte,Junot,Merlin,Guibert Eugène de Beauharnais,Croisier,Zayonchek
Chef d' état major: Général Bertier
Commandant du génie: Général Caffaréli du Falga
Commandant de l' artillerie: Général Dommartin

DIVISION DESAIX:
Brigade Belliard: 21 Demie Brigade Légère (2bns)2000 men
Brigade Friant: 61 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1800 men
88 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1500 men

DIVISION BON:
Brigade Menard: 4 Demie Brigade Légère(2bns)1010 men
Brigade Verdier: 18 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1550 men
19 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1500 men
32 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1850 men

DIVISION KLEBERT:
Brigade Damas: 2 Demie Brigade Légère(2bns)1368 men
Brigade Rampon: 25 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1530 men
75 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1700 men

DIVISION MENOU:
Brigade Vaux: 22 Demie Brigade Légère(2bns)1509 men
Brigade Vial: 13 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)2430 men
69 Demie Brigade de Ligne9(2bns)1500 men

DIVISION REYNIER:
Brigade Fugières: 9 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1509 men
6 Demie Brigade de Ligne(1bn)520 men
Brigade Lanusse: 85 Demie Brigade de Ligne(2bns)1720 men
80 Demie Brigade de Ligne(1bn)410 men
Grenadiers(3 cos)150 men

DIVISION DE CAVALERIE DUMAS:
Brigade Leclerc 7 bis de Hussards(6 esc)600 men
22 de Chassuers a Cheval(2 esc)250 men
Brigade Murat: 15 de Dragons(2 esc)200 men
18 de Dragons(3 esc)300 men
Brigade Mireur: 3 de Dragons(4 esc)350 men
20 de Dragons(5 esc)500 men
Brigade Davout: 14 de Dragons(6 esc)600 men

ARTILLERIE DE L' ARMEE:
12 pièces de 3 livres,12 pièces de 8 livres,16 pièces de livres,20 pièces de 24 livres.

 

[Thorgrimm]

Now their Anglo-Turkish enemies.

ANGLO-TURKISH FORCES EGYPT MAR 1801:

ENGLISH ARMY OF THE MEDITERRANEAN:
Commanding General Sir Ralph Abercrombie
Aide de Camp Lt. General Sir Hely-Hutchinson

Guards Brigade: M. General Luddlow
1st Regiment of foot Guards
2nd Regiment of foot Guards( Coldstream Guards)

1st Brigade: M. General Coote
54th (West Norfolk Regiment)
92nd Regiment

2nd Brigade: M. General Kraddok
8th (King's Own Regiment)
18th (Royal Irish) Regiment
13th (1st Somersetshire)Regiment
90th (Perthshire Volunteers)Regiment

3rd Brigade: M. General Cavant
50th (West Kent) Regiment
79th (Cameron Highlanders) Regiment

4th Brigade: Bg. General Doyle
Régiment La Reyne (émigrés)
30th (Cambridgeshire) Regiment
44th (East Essex) Regiment
89th

5th Brigade: Bg. General Stuart
Régiment de Minorca
Roll Regiment (swiss)
Dillon Regiment (swiss)

Reserve: M. General Moore
40th (2nd Somersetshire) Regiment
23rd (Royal Welsh Fusilers) Regiment
28th (North Gloucestershire) Regiment
42nd (Royal Highland) Regiment
58th (Rutlandshire) Regiment

Cavalry: Bg. General Finch
11th Lt. Dragoons
12th (Prince of Wales) Lt. Dragoons
26th Lt. Dragoons
ARTILLERY 5 companies

Troops arriving after 10 march with Admiral Keith:
24th (Warwickshire) Regiment
26th (Camerons) Regiment
25th (King's own Borderers) Regiment
27th (Inniskilling) Regiment
ARRIVED IN JUNE
20th (East Devonshire) Regiment

ENGLISH TROOPS FROM INDIA: M. General Baird
84th (York and Lancaster) Regiment
3 Regiments of Bengalese troops
4 Regiment of troops from Bombay

OTTOMAN TROOPS

Corps of Captain Pacha: Albanian Janissaries 6000 men

Army of the Vizir
Advance guard of the Pasha of Jerusalem 2000 men 1500 cavalry
Pasha of Aleppo: 3000 men 2000 cavalry
Pasha of Damascus: 3000 men 5000 cavalry
Guard Janissaries of the Vizir: 3000 men 1000 cavalry.

As you can see the Ottomans still used the Feudal Levy system to raise troops. Also as to the status of Mameluke Egypt was in was in a state of vassalage to the Ottoman Empire. Ozymandias would you please explain what vassalage means, this post is long enough.

 

[LouLong]

@ Thorgrimm :

5th Brigade: Bg. General Stuart
Régiment de Minorca
Roll Regiment (swiss)
Dillon Regiment (swiss)

Were these Swiss British mercenaries, mercenaries of emigrés (though you wrote emigrés at another place but just in case), "private" regiments ?

I mean I had no idea British had Swiss troops with them. Learning something every day.

Do you think it would be possible for you to find the garrisson cities of French, Austrian, British regiments ? Steph and I have them for Spain and Russia but not for the others (albeit Steph might have more infos on Prussia and England than me) ?

 

[Steph]

I have a few more, as Prussia and England are in volume I. But just regiment lists, no garrison city.

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Steph
I have a few more, as Prussia and England are in volume I. But just regiment lists, no garrison city.

Can we consider regiment names for Spain and Russia to be their garisson names as well ?

 

[Steph]

It may seem logical, but I'm not sure of that. At peace time OK, but at war time?

 

[Ozymandias]

Gentlemen --

@Steph - thanks for the info on the French military medical system -- and to think that we're taught in the English speaking world about how ghastly the British system was before the Crimea and Florence Nightingale!

Also @ Steph -- "Could you find another example in history where a cavalry units captured an enemy fleet during a 'naval' battle"

I think even I'd have a hard time with that one ... but you never know .

@Thorgrimm -- Excellent research -- & "Vassalage" means "feudal servitude" -- troops raised by feudal obligation, almost invariably in a principally agrarian society, and thereby not paid and/or equipped by the "central" authority calling up the troops.

@LouLong and Steph re: garrison / regiment names: Even if not strictly historical for those countries, it would certainly work within the context of the period, as many e.g. English regiments were named after their place (often county or "nation") of origin -- Welsh Fusiliers, Cameron Highlanders, etc.

Sorry but all for today -- much to do in the allegedly real world!

Best,

Oz