The hate for Civ7 will end the series, if not soon then eventually

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I wonder if AI could figure out the .dll bugs that stop AI from using aircraft and commanders.

I had a very long war last game where we both kept reinforcing. Confucius placed one of his commanders in a fortified city hex right on the front line and ended up getting to level eight from all the fighting and dying around him. It was great placement, I really wish I could see how the promotions ended up, if they were random or made sense. His infantry was 70+ combat strength in exploration so there had to be something there. Luckily I was Shawnee so mine were just as powerful..
 
Many, Many decades ago, Fritz Leiber, one of the Grand Masters of Science Fiction and Fantasy, wrote a short story the title of which I cannot remember now in which he hypothesized the growth of Information in the world to the point where nobody could keep up with it all (this was long before the Internet or World Wide Web, but it was already foreseeable in the late 1950s and early 1960s). So, he also hypothesized that the most important people in this future would be people who could synthesize and summarize information and make it available in palatable form to everyone else.

We are already seeing this with the proliferation of Influencers and other elements of the internet that exist for the sole purpose of steering us towards given bits of information or data - or potential sales. I am certain this will continue to grow, and specifically in the Game Industry, as there already are, there will be more sites where people can get information on new, independent or simply overlooked new games. On the one hand there will still be the problem of getting your game noticed by the site management, however many or few people that is, on the other hand the 'break in' costs are likely to be quite a bit less than the current requirement of making videos, releases, and 'managing' a 4 - 6 month lead in to release as we saw in Civ VII (and Ara, and every other current and recent A-List game).

We live in an era of constant and accelerating change in everything. Never forget that changes in game design caused by AI or any other new technology will be matched or influenced by changes in the methods and technologies for marketing, advertising, delivering, and playing games.
it will be very interesting to see how advertising and marketing changes in the coming years. Both technology and consumer changes will have a big impact on what we will see. With AI, it could be both very neat and scary
 
it will be very interesting to see how advertising and marketing changes in the coming years. Both technology and consumer changes will have a big impact on what we will see. With AI, it could be both very neat and scary
ALL change is scary: we and most big mammals are programmed that way.

On the other hand, Change is also Opportunity if you recognize the ramifications of the changes in time.

In this case, Hindsight is almost worthless but Foresight is everything.
 
I wonder if AI could figure out the .dll bugs that stop AI from using aircraft and commanders.
What I find interesting is that the AI makes the some of the same mistakes that Newbie human players make (well, This Newbie Human Player made) with its Commanders:

- Placing the Commander (Naval OR Army) all alone on a tile where it can be targeted by roaming cavalry/carracks or archers and promptly losing it.
- Never (that I've seen) using Commanders to reinforce the front line armies.
- Never having enough Commanders at the end of Antiquity to keep any large percentage of their armies - although they do a little better at the end of Exploration, probably because there tend to be longer and larger wars in that Age that required them to build Army Commanders at least.
- In both Exploration and Modern Ages totally neglecting Naval Commanders so that their 1 Fleet gets overwhelmed by my 4 - 5 Fleets. Again, just my experience, but I have never seen an AI build more than 1 - 3 Naval Commanders in any Age, and the 3 was exactly once in almost 2 dozen Exploration Age plays.

It will be interesting to see if the Civ VII AI can 'learn' to get beyond Newbie Mistakes eventually. That alone would make for a much more interesting game for us Less Than Newbie human opponents.
 
Wait, the Civ 7 Ai doesn’t use commanders?! 🤦‍♂️

It used them in that they are there with the units. Before the patches you could find two or three empty ones hanging out together. I've seen a couple with units packed inside.

But I can't imagine teaching a program how to conserve troop movement points by packing and unloading multiple units in a turn. The AI will never be able to do what we can do with commanders.
 
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It used them in that they are there with the units. Before the patches you could find two or three empty ones hanging out together. I've seen a couple with units packed inside.

But I can't imagine teaching a program how to conserve troop movement points by packing and unloading multiple units in a turn. The event will never be able to do what we can do with commanders.
That’s incredibly dissapointing. Could a work around just be automatically spawning AI produced units in their generals?
 
The premise of the thread is simply wrong. Civilization ended with BTS. There were some wisps of Civ in 5 and maybe 6 but any honest appraisal of Civ 7 versus C4 will determine that these are wholly different games. I'd challenge any honest broker to list mechanics and features in a one-by-one comparison. These are not the same game, game series, and barely from a similar genre.

As for why, well, there are some theories that have been out there for over a decade, but I think I can accurately state that the game industry pivoted away from making the best possible games for a reason.

The mess that Civ 7 represents is actually an opening for someone to revive the franchise under another flag. Let's hope it happens.
 
The premise of the thread is simply wrong. Civilization ended with BTS. There were some wisps of Civ in 5 and maybe 6 but any honest appraisal of Civ 7 versus C4 will determine that these are wholly different games. I'd challenge any honest broker to list mechanics and features in a one-by-one comparison. These are not the same game, game series, and barely from a similar genre.

As for why, well, there are some theories that have been out there for over a decade, but I think I can accurately state that the game industry pivoted away from making the best possible games for a reason.

The mess that Civ 7 represents is actually an opening for someone to revive the franchise under another flag. Let's hope it happens.

You're too drastic. Fallout 3 for one example changed the game in massive ways but nobody is saying it isn't Fallout.
 
You're too drastic. Fallout 3 for one example changed the game in massive ways but nobody is saying it isn't Fallout.
That's because the Fallout franchise is defined by its setting and worldbuilding rather than its mechanics. There is a limited amount of worldbuilding that can be in place in a 4x like Civilization, thus it is going to be defined more by its mechanics.
 
You're too drastic. Fallout 3 for one example changed the game in massive ways but nobody is saying it isn't Fallout.
This because new owner (Bethesda) retains the core concepts of the original owner (Black Isle). without much retconning efforts. but not in Fallout 4 which it is developed by a fan of cats. Instead of continuing story arc in the West. Beth narrative moves East.

Now back to Civilization franchise. what do you think the 7 turns out 'bad' for you ? is it can be fixed (DLC or mods, or extensive modding efforts).
Mine would be too long lost ages. Civ evolutionary paths is alright (you have to do quests to win those not associated with default evolutionary paths). there should be 4 Ages. with Normans be in the 2nd (Feudal), and Spain the 3rd (Exploration). also the world is too small to my likings.
 
This because new owner (Bethesda) retains the core concepts of the original owner (Black Isle). without much retconning efforts. but not in Fallout 4 which it is developed by a fan of cats. Instead of continuing story arc in the West. Beth narrative moves East.

Now back to Civilization franchise. what do you think the 7 turns out 'bad' for you ? is it can be fixed (DLC or mods, or extensive modding efforts).
Mine would be too long lost ages. Civ evolutionary paths is alright (you have to do quests to win those not associated with default evolutionary paths). there should be 4 Ages. with Normans be in the 2nd (Feudal), and Spain the 3rd (Exploration). also the world is too small to my likings.

What's bad for me? Terrible UI, terrible civilopedia, boring modern age, wildly imbalanced victories (culture can be done in half the time of science or economic), and the lack of simple features like a "wait" command or even the most basic hotkeys. I hate the lack of information given to the player, although mods have already fixed this to a degree.

Legacy paths need more than one way to complete, because they force gameplay instead of allowing you to do what's best for your civilization. The bonuses are too powerful (for me at least) to ignore.

I agree on the four ages. Mine would be Neolithic, Classical, Medieval, Early Modern. Just forget all the tanks, aircraft, etc that you don't have enough time to really use if you're playing to win. If they want us to seriously play the final age, we need to move to scored victories only. At least let us turn off the easy wins in the settings.

I don't mind leaders decoupled from civs, I don't mind age transitions, although crises go from "who cares" to totally insane like the happiness crisis in antiquity and happiness crisis in exploration, although the latter is easier to handle.

I love the art, the resources, and the warfare, especially commanders. I like the expanded diplomacy. I love towns versus cities and the soft settlement limit, although towns should count for half of cities. I like the game, I just wish it was released closer to a finished product.

If Take Two lets Firaxis work hard on it, civ 7 will end up awesome in a year or so. I've already had a ton of fun playing the broken version we got.
 
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The premise of the thread is simply wrong. Civilization ended with BTS. There were some wisps of Civ in 5 and maybe 6 but any honest appraisal of Civ 7 versus C4 will determine that these are wholly different games. I'd challenge any honest broker to list mechanics and features in a one-by-one comparison. These are not the same game, game series, and barely from a similar genre.

Once upon a time people compared The Elder Scrolls Online to its mother franchise. I’m obviously it’s a totally different genre, uncontroversially so. Still, lots of people questioned why anyone should think of it differently than the core games. You could, after all, play as the same races with a sword and shield, in first person, in environments that were plucked inch by inch from the original games. Was it not that different? Even fighting enemies you’d attack a small cluster at a time.

Even so, it’s an entirely different game that plays and feels totally different.

Civ 7 is like that. Similarly the debate over just why it feels different is hard to parse out. I have to mentally chew on this. I do think 7 is a different game.
 
Civ 7 is like that. Similarly the debate over just why it feels different is hard to parse out. I have to mentally chew on this. I do think 7 is a different game.

Having thought about it…

One major change in Civ 7 that would restore the feel of Civ would be if you could place improvements anywhere within city radius not just adjacent to already built districts. The pacing, the tactile cadence of engaging near and far as needed with exploitable map resources helped create a sense of slowly encroaching on nature while symbiotically being interwoven with it for all civ games until 7. A notable example of this is building a city in a jungle biome before having the ability to chop jungle. How you are first subject to the land then begin to dominate and transform it but in a patchwork way.

The tactile cadence of that makes 7 feel fundamentally different. They could have kept that feel and still eschewed builders, just by letting you improve anywhere in your city radius. They also made biomes less dense with their core feature.

Civ 7 jungles have alopecia

As for the military, the age system simplifies and standardizes units, but it’s not like having a bunch of swordsmen tear through your warriors wasn’t a thing in previous games. I suppose though it is different. It was a big deal to research iron working, find iron resources and on top of that produce swordsmen. In Civ 7 it’s a simple upgrade in a short streamlined tech tree with relatively affordable upgrade costs. So it really misses an entire cadence of trying to set up to get particular units. The empire resources transform a constraint on access to unit upgrades into a bonus applied on top of them. I have yet to decide if it feels good. So far it just feels marginal (ie what matters more is having more units and a better economy). Even so, while the core concept of resources benefitting unit performance remains, the feel of it is totally different because a constraint that gates access is now just a minor bonus, although one which does stack.

OUPT may be worth mentioning, but we’re three games deep already with that so not sure it matters.

I’m sure if you went through you could find other ways the streamlining has completely altered game feel away from most core Civ experiences. Government, diplomacy.

My thoughts are that many of these systems lose so much “feel” in the process of streamlining that there’s no reason to keep them other than to say they did. Like, let’s just not have government. Let’s make golden age celebrations more customizable and unique instead of tying them to a forced “guys we still have governments” thing.

So Civ 7 falls short of its design ethos by masquerading as a Civ game.

You also could have streamlined, or at least just have improved past systems without getting rid of them.

Diplomacy could have remained the same but with a more intuitive and transparent affinity and agenda system. In other words, actually making a good UI and AI. Firaxis like many modern AAA devs seems to have a competency ceiling. Instead of iterating past systems to be improved over time due to working a problem for many years, they just mix up the formula and abandon progress.
 
I've not read the 14 pages of this post. But i want to point something: this is CIV 7 "Vanilla", with no DLC yet.

CIV 6 Vanilla was also found lacking compared to full CIV 5 with all extensions. But every extension added mechanisms and tinkering that made the experience better, until the current CIV 6 that is still considered by some better than CIV7.

But is it not "unfair" to compare the 2 months old CIV7 with the none year polished CIV 6?... Especially when Firaxis DOES listen to players feedback?...
 
But is it not "unfair" to compare the 2 months old CIV7 with the none year polished CIV 6?... Especially when Firaxis DOES listen to players feedback?...

Civ 6 was a finished game and the only real complaint about it was that the AI was bad so the modern period fell flat. No one can explain what was added to 6 to make it so amazing other than somehow the loyalty system.

It’s not acceptable to release games that are only fun after 2 expansions. I also don’t think Firaxis is actually listening to fans. They’re picking out features based on loudness of complaining and what’s easy to fix at minimal effort and then acting like their listening and addressing pain points.

They act like 7 is this fine tuned machine that takes weeks to update and quality test when it’s full of known bugs and things that modders have fixed weeks ago.

This latest growth patch upends their previous “fine tuning” so one has to ask what the hell they were thinking in the first place, and now that it’s all slipshod, why so they continue to obsesses over fine tuning.

It kind of just sounds like an excuse not to actually do effort.

No, 7 is uniquely bad and soemthing is rotten in Baltimore, IMO
 
I've not read the 14 pages of this post. But i want to point something: this is CIV 7 "Vanilla", with no DLC yet.

CIV 6 Vanilla was also found lacking compared to full CIV 5 with all extensions. But every extension added mechanisms and tinkering that made the experience better, until the current CIV 6 that is still considered by some better than CIV7.

But is it not "unfair" to compare the 2 months old CIV7 with the none year polished CIV 6?... Especially when Firaxis DOES listen to players feedback?...
I don't like civ6, but it was the most feature complete game at release in a long time. The comparison is 100% fair. If you want to compare to something that was bad at release, then use civ5.

I actually think civ6 got worse with time and civ5 got better with time. The civ6 DLC was terrible.
 
I don't like civ6, but it was the most feature complete game at release in a long time. The comparison is 100% fair. If you want to compare to something that was bad at release, then use civ5.

I actually think civ6 got worse with time and civ5 got better with time. The civ6 DLC was terrible.
I agree, while there were some good things in the Civ6 expansions, more so in the first than the second, there were also some really bad features in the expansions, and I think Civ6 is the first Civ game in a long time where I would say the game was not made unequivocally better by the expansions.
 
I agree, while there were some good things in the Civ6 expansions, more so in the first than the second, there were also some really bad features in the expansions, and I think Civ6 is the first Civ game in a long time where I would say the game was not made unequivocally better by the expansions.
Then do you think Civ6 modding community still has a future at this moment? is there a movement to return to Civ6?
and did ARA better now ?
 
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