The hate for Civ7 will end the series, if not soon then eventually

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think it's clear by now that a lot of so-called criticism of the game is shallow and not much based on how the game actually is, especially after the patches. Which brings me back to the OP. A lot of the hate on the game isn't motivated by a desire to see an improved entry to the series, but by existing biases and a desire to return to a mythologised past. It's all normal human behaviour, but it won't result in a good future for the series.
 
Last edited:
I think it's clear by now that a lot of so-called criticism of the game is shallow and not much based on how the game actually is, especially after the patches
The „so-called criticism“ 😅 is „shallow“… i would rather say the criticism is justified. :) No need to repeat it again and again, but it‘s our right to criticize the game if we don‘t like it. Shallow or not shallow, it remains justified.

PS: and in my opinion: well diserved by FXS. Certain changes are unnecessary and BS by nature. :)
 
Meier said Firaxis has adopted a “rule of thirds” for new Civilization entries: “one-third traditional gameplay, one-third is improved from the last version, and one-third is brand new.” Or, more simply: “One third the same, one third improved, one third new”.
Those were the days right. Sid has pretty much aged out now.

Some of the issue with Civ 7 may be generational (although it's a soft transition). There are a higher percentage of younger players who prefer a peaceful sandbox optimizing city building game that looks and sounds great whereas many of the old schoolers want blood-soaked bangers on huge maps with doom stacks and intense and complex gameplay with little regard for how it looks or sounds. I know that I see CIV as a wargame with cities as production centers for more units and I want to push 3-400 units around for six or seven hundred turns. I just get mad when its too easy to win. I want the AI to try to tear my throat out because that's human history and I want that feel. I feel like I am a dying breed, and mostly newer players are just not that.

So, my theory is that most of the "hate" is coming from people like me who honestly despair at the direction the franchise has taken since Civ IV days.

In the end I am sure that 2K will patch up the game to stroll in the park standards. So, this will pass for many.
 
There lies your basic error. If people disliked change, why would Civs 2 to 6 have been successful with all the changes they introduced? If you were right no gaming series could be successful, still here we are at iteration 7. The question is do you change things that improve the game for your target group or do you worsen things? The overall reception of Civ 7 by the players indicates the latter.
Yeah, I really hate the subtext of this post. The fact of the matter is that Ed Beach is pretty clearly obsessed with Amplitude games (don't be surprised if we hear he's stepping down and shortly after becomes a lead for whatever game there now that he's pretty clearly not going to be Civ VIII lead). His big mark on the series has been making the games more and more resemble those games. Some of these "Amplitude signatures" are well received, notably asymmetric civilizations, building on the map rather than the city, and caring more about a neat idea than game balance, but the bottom line is that they're second fiddle for a reason. Civ VII copied the homework of their widely panned Humankind heavily. The game aesthetics are nearly identical, the era system with victory points is very similar (albeit not exactly rocket science to come up with), civ switching is nearly identical, the expansion limiters are nearly identical, the town system is heavily inspired by humankind, and ironically, they even copied the lack of asymmetry in Humankind even though that's kind of Amplitude's thing and every 4X ever that successfully pulls it off, including Civ VI, gets praised for it. Nobody should be surprised that running back these disliked mechanicsended up with a disliked game.

I'd also argue that Civ VII failing commercially is the absolute best thing that could happen to the genre. Between Amplitude and Ed Beach being Civ lead, "4X" has largely meant "games where you build on the map with a design philosophy of the more systems you have, the more fun your game is," and the genre never meant that prior to ~2015. The writing has been on the wall for a while now that the genre was on pace to be like action games where I hope you like Dark Souls because everybody is just making their take on Dark Souls. Things are just better when you have Paradox making Paradox games, Amplitude making Amplitude games, various AA devs doing what they want, and Firaxis making pick up and play games. Amplitude making Amplitude games is plenty, and just because I've seen calls for it on other forums, Paradox making Paradox games is also plenty. Firaxis doesn't necessarily need to stay in their particular niche, but it should happen because they want to do something different. Not because the developers wish they worked for Amplitude but Firaxis pays better.

Is there a different better example where fan hate rather than a low quality product ended a popular franchise permanently, and where nobody else took up the mantle? Just that franchise is dead forever, killed by its ignorant fans who couldn’t appreciate something amazing?
Deus Ex is probably the closest, but that's more people understandably boycotted a game that ends halfway through the story, has consumable single player DLC, had large portions of the game act as ads for their mobile game, and very unrealistic publisher revenue expectations. In general, this doesn't really happen for obvious reasons.
2. All those posts assume Civ7 is a commercial failure. We actually have zero information on it. Unlike HoMM4, which had changes for the sake of changes (or fan requests), Civ7 changes are aimed at grabbing new audience, so mixed reviews from old fans (as you correctly pointed out negative reviews talk about changes, so they are from old fans) don't speak anything about the game will be accepted by new people. And mixed reviews aren't negative, they are 50/50 and usually they don't prevent people from buying a game. We'll have much more information in about a year, after summer and autumn sales will pass and 2K will publish financial results incorporating them.
We don't have a smoking gun I guess, but the radio silence on sales numbers besides preorders is deafening and the concurrent player numbers are horrendous given the game budget and popularity of the series. Arguments against steam playercounts for an established game released in this era are more or less Russell's teapot. Sure, it's not impossible that steam is an outlier, but it'd be awfully weird if it was. Nothing Firaxis did should have made players run from steam. It's not like FFXIV where you're locked out of third party promotions if you buy from Steam or a game where its popularity predates the platform. There's a lot to indicate a commercial failure and basically nothing to indicate a success.
 
In case of Paradox I recall they from time to time have some polls they promote through social media and questions there are showing that they are trying to test the waters what players want. Did Firaxis did something like that in the past?
When searching with the word survey through the Civ 6 forums there are a lot of hits, among them those:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-player-survey.686974/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-survey.688352/
 
  • Like
Reactions: VGT
I see this kind of statement and it makes wonder..... because the same things were said about those games too and each went on to be more successful than the one before it. Someone is always unhappy with the direction of the new game but just keep an eye on it and a few years later millions of copies have sold.

Sure, millions of people won't buy it because they dont like it, but we don't measure success by how many people don't like something.
No, once again, the same things weren’t said about the past two entries. Both of those entries performed better at launch than 7. Once again 7 hasn’t even come close to matching the launch numbers of 6. Civ got more popular, ON LAUNCH, with 5 and 6. It’s gotten less popular now.
 
No, once again, the same things weren’t said about the past two entries. Both of those entries performed better at launch than 7. Once again 7 hasn’t even come close to matching the launch numbers of 6. Civ got more popular, ON LAUNCH, with 5 and 6. It’s gotten less popular now.
I'm old enough to have been here when those games launched (and even said some of these same decisive things about them) but not so old that I forgot what was said.
 
I admit to having been critical from the moment that I heard of 1UPT because it was that moment that I realized that they were going for the money and to do that required designing a game for the droolers not the serious strategy gamer. And while I was very critical of the decision, I will freely admit that it is correct to maximize the profits of shareholders. So that's life.

So now Beach has tripped up actually trying to solve a legitimate problem of snowballing plus of course all of this other silly stuff and they are about to lose the droolers, which is hard to fix because they are very much herd animals. Good. This is very good if it bad enough to force both 2K and the competition to focus on making a good great strategy game to restore/establish reputation. It will not be easy to do because it will require going deep into all of those things that are verboten because the droolers complain about them. So, it will take guts, as well as some money, but core gameplay can be fielded a lot cheaper than what 2K just set on fire for a loser.

Somebody needs to build a 4X game that they believe in. And if that means the end of the Civ series because somebody else takes the mantle off the rotting corpse of what was once a proud franchise, good. But I would rather it be Firaxis instead of anybody else.

But they are in a tuff spot because as Sid told us, only Firaxis can do what they did, build a big game on a proven franchise and deliver it on every platform. And I don't think they are going to be able to do that again with 2K's money. I don't even know if the Firaxis and 2K relationship will survive this debacle.

Somebody needs to build a 4X game that they believe in.
 
I'm old enough to have been here when those games launched (and even said some of these same decisive things about them) but not so old that I forgot what was said.

I think you've misunderstood what been said. Not that Civ 7 is less popular now. That the civilization series is less popular now. We can see that Civ 7s release has caused a drop in the total number of pc players across all 3 games. Maybe they are all player Civ 7 on console now instead... Or maybe they're gone and less interests sin Civ because of Civ 7.

That's an argument I don't remember hearing around the release of Civ V or VI, but then after both those releases I was playing the game rather than posting so I may have missed them
 
We can see that Civ 7s release has caused a drop in the total number of pc players across all 3 games. Maybe they are all player Civ 7 on console now instead... Or maybe they're gone and less interests sin Civ because of Civ 7.
Please don´t forget that there also exist versions of the civ series before those "three civ games". Per example Civ III and Civ IV Complete are also available at GOG and especially the GOG version of Civ III Complete is much more popular than the steam version, as it is not haunted by the labels text bug of the steam version, that plays havoc with nearly all texts of Civ 3 mods and scenarios. Per example for the Civ 3 mod CCM 3, I noticed increasing numbers of downloads when the number of Civ 7 players dropped down more and more.
 
I think you've misunderstood what been said. Not that Civ 7 is less popular now. That the civilization series is less popular now. We can see that Civ 7s release has caused a drop in the total number of pc players across all 3 games. Maybe they are all player Civ 7 on console now instead... Or maybe they're gone and less interests sin Civ because of Civ 7.
It might be that a lot of people are waiting or jumped to competitors. E.g., it seems plausible to me that people played civ 7 or watched someone play it and decided to not play it for now (because it isn't good enough, lacks civs, features, etc.), but also don't want to go back to older titles. And I think the state of civ 7 at release was another nudge to try out Old World, AoW4, or some of the Paradox games instead. Hence, I'm not completely surprised that the total number of players of civ games is lower than it was half a year ago. Are they still doing all the stuff for civ 6 they did before 7 released? Game of the month, challenges, etc.?
 
The exact same things and worse absolutely were said 15 years about Civ 5 and 9 years ago about Civ 6. In fact, these things were literally said about Civ 5 and Civ 6 by some of the exact same people who are posting the same things about Civ 7 right here with us. Time is a circle!

The history of Civ 5/6 discussions is right here on CFC for all to peruse :)
It seems to me that this might be flagging a different problem than what you think; is it possible that people are turning away from Civ as this is the 3rd release to follow the same cycle as the previous 2? Release early/unfinished product, patch multiple times, release DLC/expansions and then about 3/4 years after initial release the game is finally in a state the devs originally wanted & fans are happy with?
 
The exact same things and worse absolutely were said 15 years about Civ 5 and 9 years ago about Civ 6. In fact, these things were literally said about Civ 5 and Civ 6 by some of the exact same people who are posting the same things about Civ 7 right here with us. Time is a circle!

The history of Civ 5/6 discussions is right here on CFC for all to peruse :)
Are there any threads you would suggest we look at to compare the VI reception specifically?

I don’t have a clear memory of how Civ VI was received at launch, but I don’t recall there being a comparable Steam score. I only can recall that it was a critical success and a commercial one, too—with a million copies sold in two weeks.
 
The exact same things and worse absolutely were said 15 years about Civ 5 and 9 years ago about Civ 6. In fact, these things were literally said about Civ 5 and Civ 6 by some of the exact same people who are posting the same things about Civ 7 right here with us. Time is a circle!
Probably my memories are extremely biased because I personally was playing it from day1 and never went back to civ5, but only **** storm I recall from civ6 release was about its graphics style. It wasn't small, but I think still smaller than what we have now. Otherwise I think civ6 was considered most complete and playable in terms of vanilla release.
 
Probably my memories are extremely biased, but only **** storm I recall from civ6 release was about its graphics style. It wasn't small, but I think still smaller than what we have now. Otherwise I think civ6 was considered most complete and playable in terms of vanilla release.
Indeed. It had few technical problems and many features. It was a good launch, aside from the very loud „dunned down“ and „mobile game“ complaints. It still had issues, though. Balance was completely out the window and many units and buildings were completely useless (and some stayed like this for years). It was fun to play in the early patches, though, with the Scythian Horse Economy for example (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-horse-economy.603203/). Yet, what might have helped the launch was that people remembered the really, really bad launch of civ V: controversial changes, technically unstable, bugs, and missing many features of the previous game.
 
Indeed. It had few technical problems and many features. It was a good launch, aside from the very loud „dunned down“ and „mobile game“ complaints. It still had issues, though. Balance was completely out the window and many units and buildings were completely useless (and some stayed like this for years). It was fun to play in the early patches, though, with the Scythian Horse Economy for example (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-horse-economy.603203/). Yet, what might have helped the launch was that people remembered the really, really bad launch of civ V: controversial changes, technically unstable, bugs, and missing many features of the previous game.
I remember these bugs and rough edges, but was there much concern about low player count, negative Steam reviews, and worry over commercial success?
 
I remember these bugs and rough edges, but was there much concern about low player count, negative Steam reviews, and worry over commercial success?
Reviews and commercial success: no.
Player count: I remember discussion what needs to happen to make civ VI more popular than V. But I don‘t think they were as dominating as they are with civ VII. But also, VII has to play against V and VI combined in this.

I think it‘s also not helpful that commercial success is open of civ VII. It seems that it sold slower than VI, but we have no numbers. And in contrast to VI, which got a noteworthy discount around two months after release, 7 is still full price and I don‘t think this will change until the summer sale. If 2K would go forward and state that they are happy/unhappy with the sales so far, this would probably shut some speculation down. The news outlet for civ VI as fastest and best selling civ game stopped any speculations for that game in this regard. The reviews and player count discussions won‘t stop so easily though. Yet, these metrics won‘t change over night or with a single patch. It will take at least a year of good patches and some sales to get both up. But this is better discussed in the other thread.
 
The exact same things and worse absolutely were said 15 years about Civ 5 and 9 years ago about Civ 6. In fact, these things were literally said about Civ 5 and Civ 6 by some of the exact same people who are posting the same things about Civ 7 right here with us. Time is a circle!

The history of Civ 5/6 discussions is right here on CFC for all to peruse :)
Sir, please locate me posts detailing how hate for the game will lead to the immediate cancellation of the series.

Show me posts detailing the game was released in an alpha state.

Last of all, show me steamDB numbers proving that Civ 7 has more than half of the launch players as Civ 6.
 
"Civ 5 is dumbed down and in an unfinished alpha state"

"Don't buy Civ 5. Selling it on Steam/selling DLC is predatory"

"Civ 5 is a failing game and the patches aren't helping"

"Why is everyone so negative about Civ 6?"

"Civ 5 has killed the entire series"

"No wait, Civ 6 has killed the entire series"

I could go on and on :) The search function on CFC works well, so I'm sure you'll find some more gems!

Will do some searching! Some of these are pre-release anxiety posts, and I’m more curious about whether or not there was a great deal of concern about player counts/lack of sales of Civ VI.
 
"Civ 5 is dumbed down and in an unfinished alpha state"

"Don't buy Civ 5. Selling it on Steam/selling DLC is predatory"

"Civ 5 is a failing game and the patches aren't helping"

"Why is everyone so negative about Civ 6?"

"Civ 5 has killed the entire series"

"No wait, Civ 6 has killed the entire series"

I could go on and on :) The search function on CFC works well, so I'm sure you'll find some more gems!
Looks like the reception for Civ 5 was indeed negative, and rightly so as in its original state it was absolutely unbalanced and not much fun, but with Civ 6 it looks different. The two posts quoted are one from before the game even launched and one that the says that the author found negative reviews on Youtube but not much on the Civfanatics forums.
I still think that Civ7 has indeed got a lot more negative feedback then I remember for former releases and especially that there are very good arguments that the issues are not in the balancing but in the core game concepts which will make it a lot more difficult to salvage than in the case of Civ5.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom