The hate for Civ7 will end the series, if not soon then eventually

From what we know from YT/streamers who were invited prior to the announcement - the developers believed players would recieve all of the radical changes well once they got a chance to play it.

The price of the most expensive pre-order is also standard for the super deluxe edition of other AAA games. So I don’t really believe any conspiracy regarding inflating prices to prey on blind customer loyalty or even a belief the devs thought the game wouldn’t land well.

I personally think the devs are still in a state of disbelief regarding the reception of the game and continuing decline of concurrent player numbers. The patches that have come out have certainly been excellent polishing jobs, both smoothing out and buffering blemishes and rough points of the periphery of the game but we’ve yet to see any legitimately systemic change or even statement to the many complaints regarding core systems (of which over 60% of negative reviews mention).

I also hope they didn’t pin their hopes on the VR launch to make a big splash. It’s received even more of a negative reception and many reviews downright claim it’s barely playable.

It's very easy to imagine the development team, having worked on the game and with the system for 5 years, basically gets things in their mind in a certain way. And when customers get a hold of it, basically have to learn it all fresh, and thus becomes an over-bearing challenge.

I'm guilty of that. I design things, I use them, I refine them, I know how it all works. And then you give it to someone else and what I thought was "easy" and "obvious" suddenly isn't. You get some of the early previews, people complain a little about the UI, and they get it in their minds "oh yeah, let us update the resource icons a little, that should help", when in reality, it was vastly more than that that needed fixing.

And I think basically the main points of argument have all fed into each other to create this cycle. I think they went a little too wild on leaders, thinking they could get away with a bit more variety in the roster, but didn't expect the push-back on that that they got. The UI was rough and needed fixing, but they probably also figured "yeah, ok. But let's get some feedback on it, and then we can always tweak it". And then the whole civ switching, probably felt a little in the "it's a change, but once people get going with it, they'll like it."

But the problem is that when you compound those points - the civ switching and leader selection maybe has a few more people hold off on getting it off the bat, waiting for some reviews and feedback. But the people who did get it and get in had more trouble than expected with the gameplay, which led them to negative reviews. I don't think any individual piece necessarily is trouble. But when combined together, they all hurt each other. People might have gotten around on the civ switching if it was "here are 20 of the greatest leaders in the history of the world, play an epic adventure of Napoleon vs Genghis Khan vs Queen Victoria", but you hesitate more when it's Harriett Tubman vs Ibn Battuta vs Jose Rizal. Or if the gameplay and UI/UX was just a fantastic experience, people would play and have fun.

I do think once they get the gameplay all cleaned up, once we have a few more fan favorite leaders and civs on the roster, and once you can get it for less than 120$, it will shake out as a good game. The big question is how long that all will take, will it languish for long enough that by the time they get there, it's kind of old news and people will have forgotten about it, and not be excited to pick it up again.
 
It's very easy to imagine the development team, having worked on the game and with the system for 5 years, basically gets things in their mind in a certain way. And when customers get a hold of it, basically have to learn it all fresh, and thus becomes an over-bearing challenge.

I'm guilty of that. I design things, I use them, I refine them, I know how it all works. And then you give it to someone else and what I thought was "easy" and "obvious" suddenly isn't. You get some of the early previews, people complain a little about the UI, and they get it in their minds "oh yeah, let us update the resource icons a little, that should help", when in reality, it was vastly more than that that needed fixing.
But am I right to say that this issue is already solved across different industries? I recall hearing from movie industry that they have test screenings and potential re-shoots after if those went badly. So basically you need to bring outsider at some point, put him in front of your PoC of a product and take notes.To be fair, I don't hear it often (or maybe at all) in game industry. They bring youtubers to show earlier stage of game, but those are still happening way to late to be able to react to core game backlash.

It would be cool if gamers could give feedback early to Firaxis on next iteration, but corporate machine has its own idea about game development, secrecy, marketing etc. NDA'a would be most likely nightmare, someone would leak it anyway and it would die after single try.

In case of Paradox I recall they from time to time have some polls they promote through social media and questions there are showing that they are trying to test the waters what players want. Did Firaxis did something like that in the past? I'm trying to remind myself and I think maybe there was one I filled in but if yes, then it was years ago, maybe even before civ6 release.
 
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But am I right to say that this issue is already solved across different industries? I recall hearing from movie industry that they have test screenings and potential re-shoots after if those went badly. So basically you need to bring outsider at some point, put him in front of your product and take notes.To be fair, I don't hear it often (or maybe at all) in game industry. They bring youtubers to show earlier stage of game, but those are still happening way to late to be able to react to core game backlash.

It would be cool if gamers could give feedback early to Firaxis on next iteration, but corporate machine has it's own idea about game development, secrecy, marketing etc. NDA'a would be most likely nightmare, someone would leak it anyway and it would die after single try.
Yes, probably too late, and I don’t think much of the feedback was absorbed or valued in any case. The most common complaint was the UI at the game announcement, and it was still the most common complaint by the time the launch came around.

YouTubers are also not the perfect jury when it comes to judging the game’s quality. They have a vested interest in the success of the game as well as their relationship with the studio. Obviously, we have variation within that community and not all of the creators approach talking about the game in the same way. Some, however, are surely too close to the game to see it objectively.
 
Yes, probably too late, and I don’t think much of the feedback was absorbed or valued in any case. The most common complaint was the UI at the game announcement, and it was still the most common complaint by the time the launch came around.

YouTubers are also not the perfect jury when it comes to judging the game’s quality. They have a vested interest in the success of the game as well as their relationship with the studio. Obviously, we have variation within that community and not all of the creators approach talking about the game in the same way. Some, however, are surely too close to the game to see it objectively.

Yeah, I'm sure we're never know if they saw the feedback and ignored it, saw it and just didn't have the capacity to fix it, or maybe just didn't understand the severity of the potential issues. It was noted in August when they announced about those problems, and you would have thought in those next 6 months they should have been able to make more improvements than they did. It feels like so far it's been a costly lesson for them to learn to take in and resolve concerns like that. Hopefully they will have learned that for future updates, at the very least.
 
As promised in the reception thread, here's a more substantive post on what I think is going on in the bigger picture pertaining to the topic.

First, we have to acknowledge that Civ is not some kind of special case, and while we are all tempted to respond to developments about it emotionally due to our own personal bias towards it, to obtain useful insights, we have to take a step back and see things for what they are. Yes, this will be a meta discussion. But discussions about the game's prospects, reception, and commercial viability are meta discussions. And instead of a meta discussion based off of shaky empirical or circumstantial evidence with any linkage to the game's content itself being influenced by personal likes and dislikes, I want to raise the bar a bit.

Second, I think it's safe to say that, in general, people tend to dislike change, especially when it comes to something they're comfortable with. If you disagree with this, you should probably stop reading here. But you may want to peruse relevant literature on this topic (such as this).

With that, I think we can start with an illustrative example of the Heroes of Might and Magic series. Heroes of Might and Magic 3 might be one of the best turn-based strategy games of all time. Compared to its predecessors, it's simply bigger and better. By the time all the official expansion packs had been released, it's practically massive. So what could the developers do for the next iteration of the series? An even bigger game - more factions, more buildings, more creatures, more artifacts? It would really start to get unwieldy. There was not a whole lot more room to grow in those simple directions, not for a brand new entry to the series. So what did they do? They decided to streamline major parts of the game and add interesting, meaningful decisions at each stage. And lots of players hated the changes. Lots of them had good experiences with the series that culminated in HoMM3. They had certain ideas of what the series was about, and the changes, while not really deviating from the flavour of the series much, didn't conform to those ideas. They just wanted more of what HoMM3 offered, although how a new viable game could improve on that entry substantially was a difficult question. So HoMM4 is, by and large, considered a failure.*

*Of course, the thing that truly spelled doom for it was 3DO's financial troubles. But after the success of HoMM3, HoMM4 was definitely not close to being as successful. Sounds familiar?

HoMM4 was, in some ways, a victim of HoMM3's success. Its predecessor was so iconic that the many people who loved HoMM3 expected a sequel that was could satisfy their wants in the same ways. They rejected streamlining, for example, because it reduced the variety of creatures you could recruit in one town since you had to choose between Building A and Building B. A design decision that introduced meaningful decision-making and allowed new features to shine more (fielding heroes on the battlefield) was disliked because players saw it purely as a reduction, a downgrade.

And I contend that the Civilization series is going down this route.

Civ6 is not, I'd argue, as iconic as HoMM3 was as an entry in a series. But it does have a much bigger playerbase than its predecessors. Many people love it. But, again, with success comes a price. Its many players are comfortable with what it offers, have formed ideas about what Civ games are or ought to be about based on it. Yes, there have been substantial changes introduced to the series previously. But not as much was at stake back then. Imagine the furore today if something as drastic as 1UPT was introduced in Civ7 (maybe we don't need to). Each time substantial changes are introduced, the series loses some players and has to make up for it by winning over new players. But what happens when the playerbase is huge and comprises a large proportion of the available players out there?

The immediately commercially safe solution is to make Civ6 2.0 as a new entry. Don't rock the boat, introduce minor changes and improvements, maybe in a new skin. Indeed, a majority of players would approve of that approach. But there's a problem with that. Developing a game at this scale is a multi-year project. It's waterfall as waterfall can be. You can't release minor updates that change things here and there until you get a brand new Civ7. And if you do decide early on to make Civ 6 2.0, how would you know it's future proof? What if competitors innovated successfully within the next several years and you'll be releasing a game based on a decade-old model? And you don't have the luxury of simply changing the time period the game depicts to keep it fresh, like say Call of Duty or FIFA. So there's risk in being conservative too - the risk that your product is already stale when it's taken out of the oven. So you gotta try to innovate, you have to decide to do so early in a multi-year process, and you have to take the risk that players might dislike the new things.

And then what happens? As it turns out, players do dislike them in Civ7. Of course, there are problems with the execution. But a content analysis of reviews that was done elsewhere shows that a good half of negative reviews talk about the changes, not merely execution or UI issues. Is there a possibility that better execution would have made the changes more palatable? Sure. But that question is academic now. Either players will come to accept them as time goes by and improvements are made, or they won't. And if I base my prediction on the current discourse, I find it hard to be optimistic.

If that's the case, where would it leave us? If investment is still forthcoming, the logical thing would be for Firaxis to make Civ8 a lot like Civ6. Maybe introduce a few well-liked features from Civ7. Would that be successful? Maybe. By then they'd be a new generation of players who haven't played Civ6, so it'll be fresh to them. But then would happen for Civ9? Do the same song and dance?

As I mentioned, Civ is not some special case, and products and franchises are subject to creative destruction. If a series can't innovate because of the baggage it carries, it will eventually become outdated and be replaced by competitors. Will we be lucky enough to have Civ9 before that happens?

This is what makes rooting for a series a dicey prospect. We might love it and want it to continue. But can it escape the usual traps and eventual decay? Judging by how people react to Civ7, I suspect not. And, yes, nobody can control how people feel about the game. Players will like or dislike a product as they will, but the pattern of their preferences drives that very same process of decay. And I think what we're seeing now is that process taking root.

Whether you like Civ7 or not, you should entertain possibility that we're seeing the beginning of the end.

Both Homm5 and Civ5 are best of the series. Both Homm7 and Civ7 are bad!
 
If you have seen the Puddington trailer you should know that they are actively trolling us.
My goodness, how personally do things have to be taken?

I guess it's accurate as per the thread topic. A marketing piece that looks like it was done externally (to Firaxis, at least) is trolling nowadays?
 
It's very easy to imagine the development team, having worked on the game and with the system for 5 years, basically gets things in their mind in a certain way. And when customers get a hold of it, basically have to learn it all fresh, and thus becomes an over-bearing challenge.

I'm guilty of that. I design things, I use them, I refine them, I know how it all works. And then you give it to someone else and what I thought was "easy" and "obvious" suddenly isn't. You get some of the early previews, people complain a little about the UI, and they get it in their minds "oh yeah, let us update the resource icons a little, that should help", when in reality, it was vastly more than that that needed fixing.

And I think basically the main points of argument have all fed into each other to create this cycle. I think they went a little too wild on leaders, thinking they could get away with a bit more variety in the roster, but didn't expect the push-back on that that they got. The UI was rough and needed fixing, but they probably also figured "yeah, ok. But let's get some feedback on it, and then we can always tweak it". And then the whole civ switching, probably felt a little in the "it's a change, but once people get going with it, they'll like it."

But the problem is that when you compound those points - the civ switching and leader selection maybe has a few more people hold off on getting it off the bat, waiting for some reviews and feedback. But the people who did get it and get in had more trouble than expected with the gameplay, which led them to negative reviews. I don't think any individual piece necessarily is trouble. But when combined together, they all hurt each other. People might have gotten around on the civ switching if it was "here are 20 of the greatest leaders in the history of the world, play an epic adventure of Napoleon vs Genghis Khan vs Queen Victoria", but you hesitate more when it's Harriett Tubman vs Ibn Battuta vs Jose Rizal. Or if the gameplay and UI/UX was just a fantastic experience, people would play and have fun.

I do think once they get the gameplay all cleaned up, once we have a few more fan favorite leaders and civs on the roster, and once you can get it for less than 120$, it will shake out as a good game. The big question is how long that all will take, will it languish for long enough that by the time they get there, it's kind of old news and people will have forgotten about it, and not be excited to pick it up again.
The critical and fatal error is age breaks. Breaking the immersion, penalizing the players by taking away the things they have done, and creating the motivation for the player to abandon the game...as we have seen in the Steam player counts. It violates the player's agency and really, it is very condescending.
 
The critical and fatal error is ...
No. The same story emerges every edition. "The reason this game is bad is because of {my hobby horse}." 25 years I've been hearing this. It's just old to me now.

The age transition is certainly divisive and has driven some way. No argument. There's a lot of noteworthy gameplay changes that will have hit and miss effects on the players. Towns, workers, combat, victories, legacies, resources, upgrades, crises, etc. Plenty to criticize.

But that's just one category.

Then, we have civs and leaders. People love to bicker about whether they are historically accurate and worthy.

Then there's the quality issue. UI unfinished? bugs. Crashes.

Then there's the price. It's turned many off, safe to assume.

Then there's the content carveouts for future DLC. Many people will just wait for a bundle or get bored with the current state.

Then there's broader context. Like the economy or competition or trends.

It's all these things and maybe some others that's affecting sales and engagement.
 
I just officially gave up on Civ7, it is now uninstalled, wish I could get my money back. It's not Civ, it's something else. It's funny to me to see almost twice the amount of players on Civ 5 over 7.
 
Both Homm5 and Civ5 are best of the series. Both Homm7 and Civ7 are bad!
I would swap round the two Civ versions in your statement - I now have 300+ more hours in 7 than 5!!
 
YouTubers are also not the perfect jury when it comes to judging the game’s quality. They have a vested interest in the success of the game as well as their relationship with the studio. Obviously, we have variation within that community and not all of the creators approach talking about the game in the same way. Some, however, are surely too close to the game to see it objectively.
To be fair all of them that went to Baltimore for the preview expressed reservations to one degree or another but by the time they got their hands on the game it was probably too late for major changes.

People might have gotten around on the civ switching if it was "here are 20 of the greatest leaders in the history of the world, play an epic adventure of Napoleon vs Genghis Khan vs Queen Victoria", but you hesitate more when it's Harriett Tubman vs Ibn Battuta vs Jose Rizal. Or if the gameplay and UI/UX was just a fantastic experience, people would play and have fun.
Agree 1000%.
 
. The patches that have come out have certainly been excellent polishing jobs, .

IMO they were minimal effort, barely significant changes to a massive set of things that should have been there at launch but I guess soemthing soemthing about having water in the desert
 
Not sure I believe this is a “they didn’t expect fans would react this way and needed feedback sooner” situation. Remember how the tech tree lines didn’t even line up at launch? Not to mention the completely obscure and broken settlement connection thing?

This isn’t a swing and a miss mistaken vision, this is a failure of some kind in development itself. Something went wrong in development, the inability to finish a decent, finished, product.
 
Not sure I believe this is a “they didn’t expect fans would react this way and needed feedback sooner” situation. Remember how the tech tree lines didn’t even line up at launch? Not to mention the completely obscure and broken settlement connection thing?

This isn’t a swing and a miss mistaken vision, this is a failure of some kind in development itself. Something went wrong in development, the inability to finish a decent, finished, product.
It's a failure in every way possible.
 
Moderator Action: Further criticizing or commenting about other members will lead to thread bans. Discuss the topic, not each other. -lymond
 
This isn’t a swing and a miss mistaken vision, this is a failure of some kind in development itself. Something went wrong in development, the inability to finish a decent, finished, product.
I see this kind of statement and it makes wonder..... because the same things were said about those games too and each went on to be more successful than the one before it. Someone is always unhappy with the direction of the new game but just keep an eye on it and a few years later millions of copies have sold.

Sure, millions of people won't buy it because they dont like it, but we don't measure success by how many people don't like something.
 
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