The Immortal Challenge 2: For the Fatherland

[Sisiutil]

There's only one axeman in the stack and he's just waiting to be upgraded

Ah. For some reason most of your screenshots featured classical age units in the feature roles. You had me thinking that you never get out of that era at Immortal level.

 

[aelf]

I've finished playing the next round. Things aren't so bad. I'll post it sometime during the weekend.

 

[salnc]

As far as I remember from the SDK, the chances for a revolt are influenced by: the culture of the foreign civ in the specific city ; the number of tiles in the bfc owned by the foreign civ (but a revolt is also possible, if no tile is owned by the other civ, it would just increase the probability) - note: perhaps only the 8 directly adjacent tiles count towards this. And finally - I think - the foreign civ needs a city whose cultural boundaries could include your city's location.

Defenders decrease the chances of a revolt and the maximum chance possible is 10%.

 

[aelf]

the number of tiles in the bfc owned by the foreign civ (but a revolt is also possible, if no tile is owned by the other civ, it would just increase the probability) - note: perhaps only the 8 directly adjacent tiles count towards this. And finally - I think - the foreign civ needs a city whose cultural boundaries could include your city's location.

I think you got it right there.

 

[Godel]

Hi Aelf

I've been away a week and just caught up on your progress. Good work

One minor point: I notice in your screen shot that Berlin has unirrigated corn. You may want to fix that up when you get the chance

Godel

 

[aelf]

Sorry, guys. I haven't had time. I'll try to post the update tomorrow (which is still during the weekend, actually).

I've been away a week and just caught up on your progress. Good work

I have mixed feelings about this game. On one hand, this is going as well as any decent Immortal game we might be having. On the other, the SE aspect of it seems a bit under-developed. I have tried to analyse why it seemed to play so small a part, and I actually think that specialists have contributed quite a lot to our research, but I can sense that some readers aren't too happy with the way things are going. Maybe it was a bad choice to mention the phrase SE in the first place. I understand what people might expect to see in an SE game, and I didn't even think that the game would give them that from the very beginning. Of course, the readers' satisfaction is highly important, so if there are some of them who are not, I feel concerned.

One minor point: I notice in your screen shot that Berlin has unirrigated corn. You may want to fix that up when you get the chance

I'm not sure I did. I always overlook that kind of thing

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Honestly, aelf, I wouldn't be concerned if I were you. Just like with Sisiutil's ALC games, you have the "veteran" contributors and a bunch of people who pick these threads up as primers with each new game. The "veterans" (for lack of a better name) mostly won't be upset over how the game progresses unless you totally ignore them (which you obviously don't ), so even if it's not a "pure SE" or something along those lines, they will have seen how you arrived at your version of it. And maybe they can play a more specialist-oriented version in a shadow game to provide advice on how to make yours more specialist-intensive, but I doubt they would be unsatisfied with your play.
And the new readers are usually trying to figure out how to move up a level, so as long as you're successful (or even if you aren't, as long as it's clear what went wrong) they won't be disappointed either.

And for everyone else reading, I'm not trying to speak for everyone - I'm just expressing my opinion of the general tone of the thread.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

hey aelf. been lurking, not posting, keep up the good work. please post a cultural borders screenie when you do the update. looking forward to the panzers.

 

[zagnut]

And for everyone else reading, I'm not trying to speak for everyone - I'm just expressing my opinion of the general tone of the thread.

And I, for one, wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[Harbourboy]

Bring on the Panzers!

 

[aelf]

Thanks, guys. I guess reputation is at stake here. I hate to not live up to expectations. I just fear I may have sounded like I promised more than I can achieve. That doesn't mean there's any reason to stop, though. The show must go on

please post a cultural borders screenie when you do the update.

Sorry, but what is that and what does that show you?

 

[aelf]

Round 6: 1270AD - 1515AD

I liked the idea of not wasting anymore time on Isabella and accepting her capitulation instead. We could then move on to Washington before he got riflemen. So here's the deal:

I decided to just grab Drama from her, since I couldn't imagine us having any time for sidetracking in our research.

And, true enough, after the capitulation, Cordoba does not control any tile in Madrid's BFC:

I also decided to employ Isabella in helping us do some research:

I gave her Nationalism and asked her to research Military Tradition. Hopefully relations would have improved by then, thanks to defensive pact and mutual struggle bonuses, and we can get it from her.

Meanwhile, we went for Chemistry in order to boost our upcoming war efforts against Washington. We employed the trick we've learned in order to get Gunpowder quickly, researching it for one turn to reduce the value the AI places on it and then trading for it:

I also traded Liberalism for lots of cash (600+ gold) from Brennus.

Then, having gotten the prerequisite, we used the GS we were keeping to lightbulb Chemistry, cutting research time down to 3 turns:

On the next turn, Isabella, being the high-maintenance lass that she is, began asking for favours:

Well, anything that makes you happy, dear. Just make sure you trade us some techs in the future

After Chemistry was discovered, we were free to research Democracy. The AIs generally don't seem to favour that tech too much, so we should be able to get it in time to build the SoL.

Anyway, we mustered our forces quickly and embarked on the American campaign without delay:

Let's hope we catch Washington still with macemen.

While we were going about our business, Louis showed up:

I said no. The Frenchman had Astronomy on us, but, unfortunately, we had made him very unhappy by trading with Brennus so there was little chance of getting his favour back anytime soon. Giving him Nationalism under these circumstances would be only be useless, helping him without helping us.

Anyway, it did turn out that Washington got some riflemen shortly after, but thankfully trebuchets did enough collateral damage to weaken them for our maces:

And check out what the city holds:

Now that Wahsington had rifles, it was mandatory that we upgrade our army. Fortunately, with our takings and the sale of Liberalism to somebody else (I can't remember who) for more gold, it was not a difficult task. In one turn, our maceman army was transformed into a grenadier one. Now, into the American hinterland we march!

[to be continued in the next post]

 

[UncleJJ]

This is looking good

 

[Sisiutil]

Grenadiers versus Rifles. A classic match-up which the AI just can't hope to win. Looking forward to the next installment.

 

[carl corey]

And, true enough, after the capitulation, Cordoba does not control any tile in Madrid's BFC:

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I didn't say this would happen. In fact, I told you it wouldn't, as those tiles should have been closer to Cordoba than to Madrid, and they aren't. The only thing I was worried about, and which I still don't know for sure yet is if Madrid will at one point revolt. Given the high cultural output and the distance to the nearest Spanish city, it will most likely not revolt. The Sistine Chapel might also help. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 

[aelf]

[continued from previous post]

We got two Great Persons while the war was going on. The first was a GE, finally born in Berlin after running an engineer there for ages:

This was a great development, since it meant that we could hurry part of the SoL. Given the fact that Brennus got Democracy soon after us, and that he had his own GE, that might prove to be necessary.

We also got another GG from valour in combat:

I thought for a while and decided to use him to build a Military Academy in Hamburg. The city was already producing level 3 units with a GMI. Another GMI would not make much of a difference. A Military Academy, however, would provide a production boost immediately, which we could use to sustain our war efforts and expansion rate. We can settle the next GG and maybe use him in conjunction with West Point and/or Pentagon to build higher level units.

And, as you can see, we researched Steel after Chemistry, which enables those handy cannons (we have a few CR3 catapults waiting to be upgraded) and which the AI seldom prioritises.

The city of San Fransisco fell next:

It's a bad screenshot, I know I didn't take a good look at it before moving on. Anyway, being too near to the Celtic border, the city was razed. I just wanted to free up Boston's BFC so that it could work the surrounding improvements (such as the gem mine), and we could do with less city upkeep.

This was done while waiting for reinforcements to arrive from the Fatherland, which we needed to adequately fortify Boston while sending a well-protected stack to take the better-defended city of New York (to the SE of Boston) in the American heartland.

Anyway, the engineer in Berlin seems to be quite virile, producing another GE next:

While he was unexpected (I was thinking of another GS for lightbulbing), you don't usually complain when you get a GE, do you?

The round ended at the discovery of Steel. I haven't determined where we should head next. We can research Scientific Method (not my favourite since it obsoletes the GL), Astronomy, Economics or Replacable Parts. Choosing Replacable Parts and heading for Assembly Line for our UB seems to be the best way, but Assembly Line requires Corporation (which requires Economics).

And we have a bit of a problem. The tech screen:

I don't think we're very far behind yet. The three most advanced AIs are Brennus, HC and Washington. We have Steel on the first and Democracy in addition on the other two. However, everybody is stuck in WFYABTA mood, even our little vassal Isabella. I guess it struck after we began capturing American cities and moved up in score. The curse of success, huh? But considering the amount of tech trading we did to get where we are, I'm not altogether surprised. The issue is how to survive and keep pace in the near future, given the circumstances. Our tech rate is alright (Scientific Method in 9 turns), and we can expect more GPs to help by lightbulbing. Which techs we pursue and in what order would probably be crucial.

I'm also thinking of bribing Brennus to go to war with HC to slow both of them down. He has popped back to Taoism after a Buddhist period, and the option of converting to Taoism to befriend him is open to us. It's only a matter of timing and which tech we can use to bribe him. If only that darn Isabella would stop being so sulky. She's about to finish researching MT and Brennus doesn't have that.

The power graph:

The mass upgrade that we did does have an appreciable effect. It's certainly enough to break Washington's rising power.

In this round, we've transformed our economy to be more like an SE, farming over some cottages and employing more specialists on top of the Mercantilism ones. As such, the GNP graph is becoming more irrelevant. Let's look at the production graph instead:

As they say, after land, production is power. And we're not doing too bad. Louis has quite high production levels, but Brennus is only way up there because of a Golden Age he began in 1460AD. With our quick factories, we should be high up pretty soon.

By the way, I suspect Brennus used his GE for that Golden Age of his, but the AI loves SoL as much as we do so we must be careful. Berlin is not that productive by AI standards and every turn we delay is a risk. I'm thinking of hurrying the SoL right away and pop-rushing the last bit of the wonder. What do you think?

The map of our continent:

After New York (we've begun laying siege to it), I'm thinking of a brief foray to raze Chicago before pausing the war to recover. After that, Washington, Seattle and Philadelphia would be taken in that order. Houston and Atlanta can serve as another mini buffer state (to absorb damage in a future war with Brennus) as we vassalize Washington. What do you think of this plan?

The other continent:

By the way, we didn't win the circumnavigation race. Huayna did.

We are doing well in terms of warmongering, but keeping up with the AIs in tech might prove to be a challenge in the near future. And Panzers may be called for to break Celtic power, after which steamrolling the Incans shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[aelf]

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I didn't say this would happen. In fact, I told you it wouldn't, as those tiles should have been closer to Cordoba than to Madrid, and they aren't. The only thing I was worried about, and which I still don't know for sure yet is if Madrid will at one point revolt. Given the high cultural output and the distance to the nearest Spanish city, it will most likely not revolt. The Sistine Chapel might also help. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Ah, I was thinking all along that a revolt is only possible if your enemy's cultural border touches the city tile.

Indeed, the Sistine Chapel is helping. But you needn't worry anyway. The city screen doesn't even show any chance of a revolt. And Madrid is almost half German. Long live the kulturkampf!

 

[Harbourboy]

issue is how to survive and keep pace in the near future, given the circumstances. Our tech rate is alright (Scientific Method in 9 turns), and we can expect more GPs to help by lightbulbing. Which techs we pursue and in what order would probably be crucial.

Yes, this is crucial. Through a few extra tricks, you are a bit further ahead than I would have been at the same point (I don't think I would have been able to get all those grenadiers as soon as the riflemen showed up) but in the next 100 years or so I would be overwhelmed by infantry and tanks whilst still using mostly musketmen.

I look forward to seeing how you keep pace, and how you catch up with Louis and Brennus.

Nice work so far though.

 

[oyzar]

isabella dont liek beeing decleared on twice. you allso razed some of her cities. -13 is kinda hard to overcome... you only have +17 so you should consider adopting teocracy to get more friendly with her if you want that tech so bad. I think you need like +8 to get to friendly though. She is 47% of your size so watch out that she doesnt outgrow you.

 

[UncleJJ]

Nicely played. You are going to win this

Ozar is right, Izzy's cultural pressure might cause a few problems from lost tiles unless aelf takes action. Once SoL is built I suggest switching to Free Speech to get the 100% culture boost. Bureaucracy costs 4 gold more than FS and it only gives +17 commerce in Berlin, while there are several towns in various cities to get +2 commerce from FS. Once the need for the +6 hammers in Berlin is gone (i.e. Sol is built) then the +100% culture in the border cities is well worthwhile.

Trade trick: Sell Marble to Brennus, he'll pay 16 gold for it I doubt it will do him much good and you can cancel in 10 turns, that's 160 gold for no effort on your part. Not sure of diplomatic consequences of trading with Brennus, Louis and his buddy Huayna Capac might take a dim view but who cares you can't be friends with everyone.

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You seem to be working forest tiles when you have grassland farms available and that is significantly less productive in most cases as long as you can use Slavery, and you can right now.

Here is a a simple mathematical demonstration that grasland farms are much better than forests. At a city size of 10 it takes 20 food to gain one pop and that pop can be sacrificed with Slavery for 30 hammers. So 20 food is equivalent to 30 base hammers using Slavery at size 10 and 1 food is equal to 1.5 hammers.

Let's examine a grassland farm, it gives 3 food and takes 2 food to feed its citizen, therefore it has a net gain of 1 food = 1.5 hammers.
Now a plains forest gives 1 food and 2 hammers which is equivalent to 3.5 hammers, but costs 2 food for its citizen, equivalent to 3 hammers and so it only has a net gain of 0.5 hammers. On this basis (over a 10 turn whipping cycle) using a citizen to work a grassland farm is 3 times more productive than working a plains forest.

In Cologne you are working 2 forests when there are 2 riverside grassland farms available, this means over 10 turns, you'd gain 20 hammers and 20 commerce from swapping tiles Other cities are also working forests when grassland farms are available.

If it is any consolation Sisiutil does this all the time too

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Grenadiers and cannons should blow Washington away You just need to control WW problems... so jails and happiness resources are important. A long term research goal has to be Fascism for Mt Rushmore and Police State allowing unlimited warfare... but you knew that anyway