The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[bestsss]

>>There is a major investment to spreading your own religion, building all gold infrastructure, and generating a GP for a shrine, and the returns are often comparable to a mediocre post-Industrial production city building wealth.

Holy city is for major spy discount.

 

[shyuhe]

There aren't enough trees to chop out the GW comfortably, so I think that's not an option.

I too would prefer to cottage the capital but I wouldn't lay any down until barb incursions end.

I like Duckweed's proposed improvement/tile management.

As for barbs, I'd stick an archer on the hill next to the wheat and another one west. I think we'll have to delay our settler for a bit to make sure we have enough barb protection. We're going to be in for a rough time with barbs on this map.

 

[The Rook]

>>There is a major investment to spreading your own religion, building all gold infrastructure, and generating a GP for a shrine, and the returns are often comparable to a mediocre post-Industrial production city building wealth.

Holy city is for major spy discount.

Yes, re-reading your post that was clearly what you meant. Sorry.

 

[bestsss]

shyuhe, there are enough forest tiles and w/ 2 workers we can chop it fast enough. I think we can even send a settler to the gold site too. The only risk is if we dont get it on time and of course we won't be able to chop anything else, on top of the bad health.

 

[shyuhe]

^

We have 4 base health, minus 2 for the desert. If we chop all the forests in our BFC, we'll be capped at 2 with the ability to grow into 5 using the FP. That's gonna restrict our capital a lot unless we can get the grain resources around us. Also, we have neither BW (no pre-chopping) nor masonry, so I just don't see how we can get everything lined up in time to make a reasonable attempt at the GW. If we were going to try for the GW, we would have needed to go agri--BW--masonry.

 

[obsolete]

No, no, no.... do not tell me that we are even ACTING serious as though we had some sort of chance to get TGW here. At this late of a stage... without masonary.. or bronzeworking... or trees we can use.... not even god-damn stone... and we are thinking on somehow.. beating deity AI's to TGW....

No... not just deity AI's... deity AI TEAMS... where they start off with more bonus-techs than in a solo game.

Please... tell me this really is not happening. Because this would cause great alarm to my trust in my fellow team-mates.

So.... to make myself sleep better tonight, I will wipe his noble-marathon-rookie discussion from my mind and pretend it didn't happen.

---

Now... on to serious wonder matters. Believe me, the first thought that came into my mind when I saw the gold tile was not IF... but WHERE are we going to build the S. Paya? I see a nice production spot, but it would not have a levee for later, and that's one of the 2 problems with that site. It would be ideal if we can build it in a prime BLOCKING location. Maybe we can get super lucky if the terrain near that gold can have decent food and hammers. Then that makes it simple...

We will have a little better part of the over-all picture at the end of archery.

As for the discussion about shrine... Well we can get a priest very fast with the S.Paya, and we also with that Gold we should be able to bulb philo fast enough to get Toaism. So it is do-able... Also, in the newer bug-fixes of BtS you can now ask or even bribe other AI's to switch to YOUR religion, EVEN IF they founded their own.

 

[shyuhe]

@obs:
I don't think deity teams get any more starting techs than normal. Deity AI already start with all first tier techs I think. Not that I'd want to try getting the GW with these settings anyways...

S. Paya is a good wonder to have, especially with spiritual. Then we won't even have to bulb philosophy to make use of pacifism, assuming we get natural spread from someone else like Monty. Too bad it'll take too long to build to be effective as a land blocking culture building, but it's definitely something to consider as we get closer to 1AD.

I would prefer a GS as the first GPerson. If we wait till S. Paya to get our first GP as a GPerson, it's gonna be a while even with philosophical.

 

[bestsss]

>>No... not just deity AI's... deity AI TEAMS... where they start off with more bonus-techs than in a solo game.
See I don't tell we should even attempt at. I would not in that particular case.

However, there are not so bad odds:
The Great Wall is a militaristic wonder and ragnar/monty would like it. Monty is the worst wonder builder (WonderConstructRand=0. sitting bull is the same; Lous and Ramesses have 50), and Rangar has 10. Churchill is the same as Rangar. Willem has 20 but he doesn't have militaristic flavor (sci/gold), so he is not a very good candidate.

So it the rest of the AIs are similar we may see quite late GW.

 

[obsolete]

I don't think deity teams get any more starting techs than normal. Deity AI already start with all first tier techs I think.

Wrong on both counts.

Monte in a SOLO game starts off with:

Myst
Wheel
Agriculture
Hunting
Archery


Now, when in a TEAM, if his buddy has a base default of Fishing, and Mining, these stack together and both members on that team start off with 7 techs now free. And there is a lot of more stacking going on than just techs.

 

[JammerUno]

^ Just lurking here, but SP is aest with only 2 GP GPP/t, AW is philo with 2 GP GPP/t and 3 priests slots (but requires stone). Getting to philo first with the first GP a GP will be hard, and getting the GP with the SP after popping two GS will take forever.

 

[shyuhe]

Ah, I had always assumed deity AI start with all first tier techs. Thanks for the correction.

 

[The Rook]

As for the discussion about shrine... Well we can get a priest very fast with the S.Paya, and we also with that Gold we should be able to bulb philo fast enough to get Toaism. So it is do-able... Also, in the newer bug-fixes of BtS you can now ask or even bribe other AI's to switch to YOUR religion, EVEN IF they founded their own.

I think that holy-city-espionage-discount-thingy only works if the target ISN'T running your religion, or running FR, but I could stand corrected. I'm unsure whether a shrine would be necessary, if it isn't I think I'd prefer a GS like shyuhe. S Paya could be a realistic possibility, but IF we want a Holy City we would need to bulb Philo fairly early anyway, and OR is quite easy to obtain.

 

[Dirk1302]

Why are we discussing getting GW? In AW setting it's a good wonder for the GG's and tech. In AW situation tech is slow due to lack of TR's and the necessity of building units.Surely we'll try to stay in peace with our neighbours here. We're not industrial, there's no stone , and we probably won't get it and if we do it's not clear how helpful it'll be. We may steal something at the cost of spy hammers and deteriorating relations while the one thing we have going for us here is the possibility to settle good land and have a good early techrate through settling gold early and maybe getting some cottages going early. Even if we could get it i don't think it would be worth the hammers.

 

[The Rook]

However, there are not so bad odds:
The Great Wall is a militaristic wonder and ragnar/monty would like it. Monty is the worst wonder builder (WonderConstructRand=0. sitting bull is the same; Lous and Ramesses have 50), and Rangar has 10. Churchill is the same as Rangar. Willem has 20 but he doesn't have militaristic flavor (sci/gold), so he is not a very good candidate.

So it the rest of the AIs are similar we may see quite late GW.

Maybe, but it would be quite a gambit. No stone, no Masonry, weak commerce (before we settle gold) and lots of pressing tech priorities.

 

[bestsss]

I think that holy-city-espionage-discount-thingy only works if the target ISN'T running your religion, or running FR, but I could stand corrected. I'm unsure whether a shrine would be necessary, if it isn't I think I'd prefer a GS like shyuhe. S Paya could be a realistic possibility, but IF we want a Holy City we would need to bulb Philo fairly early anyway, and OR is quite easy to obtain.

They are 2 separate bonuses, the holy city always works regardless the religion of the target. The other is having your state religion in the target city and it is not state religion of the target (regardless where the holy city is)
A shrine is not necessary but it only works when the holy city and the state religion are the same.

Since spiritual trait, it'd be possible to hop between state religion/FR if necessary.
---
Once again, b/c it was unclear, when I was thinking of philosophy (Taoism), spies later w/ mausoleums and the like I noticed we would nott have the early boost of the GW. Looked at the leaders and noticed they are unlikely to build the GW early.
However, the starting location doesn't help building it at all.

 

[shyuhe]

On a side note, tech rates on inland sea are generally pretty good because of the large number of rivers on the map.

 

[obsolete]

By the way... about our super-early OB deal. I understand why some thought it was a decent move. However, my own observation over time has shown me that nothing causes an AI to go into an aggressive settler-spam toward you faster than an OB deal.

 

[obsolete]

Archery Turn-set is in...


I only did 7 turns (what was needed for archery), and already we have aquired a number of complications. It turns out that we were greeted by a Japan scout. What is terrifying here is the direction he came from. I thought we all could swear we were at the very south end of the map here, but not according to where he came from. Even more terrifying is his partner, a mad-ass rexer. And there is a LOT of land there they will gobble up. It will be hard for us to block off such a wide front against such bonuses.

Something as simple as mining the hill ran into an altercation with a stupid barb popping out of a forest. I moved off the hill and farmed the FloodPlain for 1 turn, before moving onto the hill again to work it again. I remember reading about barbs who normally don’t enter borders, will do so if you have a partially built improvement on the edge of it. They move in to pillage that, then once that is completed their code tells them to go gun-ho for you since they are already inside the culture borders.

I haven’t moved the second warrior on this turn yet, because I’m not sure where the best decision is for.

Anyhow, one thing did go half decent for us so far. We popped a hut and got 50 more gold. That was a close one, I didn’t know it, but right on the other side of that hut Monte already had a beat-up archer ready to take it. Oh well, all is well that ends well, and such. I was already a bit late moving that warrior toward the gold because I was trying to be ESPECIALLY SAFE by taking an extra turn, etc to move through forest covers.

Currently, Monte’s team is still the most hated by Churchill’s. Also, no one has built any wonders yet, but I suspect Japan is because he is not building cities as fast as the rest are.

The Gold-Site doesn't have anything fancy to go along with it, but there is a little more to check out in the East before making a final decision on it. At least we now know we have horses. The problem is, if we want to hook them up soon, this will cost us another blocking city, and they are needed ASAP.

And BTW, ironically, we were just ONE commerce short of getting 101 beakers for archery, hence the maximum tech-overflow this turn.

 

[bestsss]

So, obsolete, you explored a bit north, that's what I meant, the sea is close indeed.
Tech: I guess it's bronze working.
We need at least 2 archers before the settler.

I will post more detailed plan later.

 

[obsolete]

I only put bronzeworking up there for a palce-holder. I figured you would want to discuss it some more. To be honest, now that we have archers BW loses a lot of value, especially since our few trees are more precious than ever.

There are alternatives... roads would be about half the cost right now, and we'll definitely need them to get our trade-routes hooked up and those resources, etc. We can start pre-roading to that gold site to speed up the travel times, etc. However I suspect a lot of whip-maniacs may not want to stall BW longer.