You can whip a settler immediately to claim the iron.
The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial
- Thread starter Duckweed
- Start date
You can whip a settler immediately to claim the iron.
I guess not.
on begging:
I think begging is player based, so that would mean 'yes'. However I must check before I have a definite answer.
Yes, I am sure... but we can't ask tech. from them unless we get them to pleased as team attitude. Simply they don't want to trade tech. for anything, sucks. So to work we need Monty to friendly, Ragnar - cautious to work the scenario.
As for current situation.
Adopt to Hindu.
Writing->Iron Working
Delhi: finish worker, whip granary 2pop (I think working the plains hill is better than the unimproved flood plains), scout, send to explore through Monty territory, barracks, archer. We already pay for troops, so unless the archer is necessary, dont produce it.
Worker goes for flood plains to farm 'em.
I am undecided about cottages vs. farms but I think we should get some other city for cottages/oxford. I'd prefer to workshop/windmill the capital. Still undecided, though.
Bombay, archer/ granary, library. Move the warrior out of it and send it to the 2 west from the horses, or even 3 west.
I think begging is player based, so that would mean 'yes'. However I must check before I have a definite answer.
Yes, I am sure... but we can't ask tech. from them unless we get them to pleased as team attitude. Simply they don't want to trade tech. for anything, sucks. So to work we need Monty to friendly, Ragnar - cautious to work the scenario.
As for current situation.
Adopt to Hindu.
Writing->Iron Working
Delhi: finish worker, whip granary 2pop (I think working the plains hill is better than the unimproved flood plains), scout, send to explore through Monty territory, barracks, archer. We already pay for troops, so unless the archer is necessary, dont produce it.
Worker goes for flood plains to farm 'em.
I am undecided about cottages vs. farms but I think we should get some other city for cottages/oxford. I'd prefer to workshop/windmill the capital. Still undecided, though.
Bombay, archer/ granary, library. Move the warrior out of it and send it to the 2 west from the horses, or even 3 west.
The Rook
King
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Tech
Like PK, I think we could capture barb cities with axes, and axes/spears would probably be our best defence for a while in the event of an early dow. Also we have a fine copper site that could be claimed to hook us up with metal. If we don't have a convenient iron source (or lack iron), we might look silly going IW, but now we've unveiled copper and horse, the chances are increasingly high that we have iron hidden in the capital. I'd probably favour Writing-Meditation-Priesthood-Monarchy for diplo, research and cheap happiness. It's likely Ragnar/Joao will be running HR by the time we have Monarchy, and if not we could follow with Alphabet. If the majority favour Writing-IW, I'm fine with it though, I don't feel overwhelmingly strongly either way.
Builds (provisionally)
Same as Duckweed suggests, though perhaps whip settler in favour of a third worker after capital has grown back to size 7. I'm also a little unclear about the urgency which we need the next settler at this stage, so I may be prepared to revise my opinion on worker or settler next nearer the time. I'd favour settling 1E of copper next, BUT if it is certain that we will get that site, but a risk of losing obsolete's suggested site, then I would favour going for the wheat/cow first.
Land improvements
I didn't think the 4 cottage out take from Dirk's Charly game was a good example of a town spammed capital. I think Delhi has the potential for far greater commerce than that if we really hit the cottages. So I'm with Dirk on cottaging the capital for the Bureaucracy bonus, as the strategy has served me well at Deity so far, though I won't say with confidence that this is the superior method, as I am far less experienced with farm spammed river capitals. I've seen some very convincing cottage free Deity wins from Duckweed, so if we go the complete farm route, I'm sure I will learn a great deal from this SG. If we seriously plan on gifting fresh cities to the AI (another area where I lack expertise), then this perhaps favours the farm strategy, as we'll need lots of production, especially if we are going to settle cities for ourselves too.
Edit: As I mentioned earlier, adopt Hinduism immediately too!
Like PK, I think we could capture barb cities with axes, and axes/spears would probably be our best defence for a while in the event of an early dow. Also we have a fine copper site that could be claimed to hook us up with metal. If we don't have a convenient iron source (or lack iron), we might look silly going IW, but now we've unveiled copper and horse, the chances are increasingly high that we have iron hidden in the capital. I'd probably favour Writing-Meditation-Priesthood-Monarchy for diplo, research and cheap happiness. It's likely Ragnar/Joao will be running HR by the time we have Monarchy, and if not we could follow with Alphabet. If the majority favour Writing-IW, I'm fine with it though, I don't feel overwhelmingly strongly either way.
Builds (provisionally)
Same as Duckweed suggests, though perhaps whip settler in favour of a third worker after capital has grown back to size 7. I'm also a little unclear about the urgency which we need the next settler at this stage, so I may be prepared to revise my opinion on worker or settler next nearer the time. I'd favour settling 1E of copper next, BUT if it is certain that we will get that site, but a risk of losing obsolete's suggested site, then I would favour going for the wheat/cow first.
Land improvements
I didn't think the 4 cottage out take from Dirk's Charly game was a good example of a town spammed capital. I think Delhi has the potential for far greater commerce than that if we really hit the cottages. So I'm with Dirk on cottaging the capital for the Bureaucracy bonus, as the strategy has served me well at Deity so far, though I won't say with confidence that this is the superior method, as I am far less experienced with farm spammed river capitals. I've seen some very convincing cottage free Deity wins from Duckweed, so if we go the complete farm route, I'm sure I will learn a great deal from this SG. If we seriously plan on gifting fresh cities to the AI (another area where I lack expertise), then this perhaps favours the farm strategy, as we'll need lots of production, especially if we are going to settle cities for ourselves too.
Edit: As I mentioned earlier, adopt Hinduism immediately too!
JammerUno
King
As a lurker:
I believe citysize doesn't do much for TR yield, only 5% increase for every pop over 10. That would imply the choice between farms and cottages has almost no bearing on TR yields.
I believe citysize doesn't do much for TR yield, only 5% increase for every pop over 10. That would imply the choice between farms and cottages has almost no bearing on TR yields.
As I mentioned before, I'm on the fence between IW and Monarchy, so count my vote as neutral for the tech path.
I don't mind cottages on other riverside grassland tiles in capital in the future, but for now I'm strongly against cottages on FPs, a steady supply of scientists in capital is needed for a long time. Capital can still have +3F while working all 3 riverside hill tile and 2 scientists.
BTW I have not said that we'll farm all tiles in this game, the western copper/rice/FP site clearly should be all cottaged as it'll be our OU site.
@Pauliskhan
I think you can count the consensus and go ahead after Obs proposed.
@Obs
Come on, propose your plan, please.
I don't mind cottages on other riverside grassland tiles in capital in the future, but for now I'm strongly against cottages on FPs, a steady supply of scientists in capital is needed for a long time. Capital can still have +3F while working all 3 riverside hill tile and 2 scientists.
BTW I have not said that we'll farm all tiles in this game, the western copper/rice/FP site clearly should be all cottaged as it'll be our OU site.
@Pauliskhan
I think you can count the consensus and go ahead after Obs proposed.
@Obs
Come on, propose your plan, please.
The Rook
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More on settling:
Though 1E of copper claims the rice immediately, there may be an argument for settling 1SE, as this would guarantee an extra two FP in our empire, and we would have the rice after 1 border pop. Of course this depends on how close Toku/Joao are. The two southern FP may not be under threat.
Though 1E of copper claims the rice immediately, there may be an argument for settling 1SE, as this would guarantee an extra two FP in our empire, and we would have the rice after 1 border pop. Of course this depends on how close Toku/Joao are. The two southern FP may not be under threat.
The Rook
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@Duckweed
Whilst I think 1E of copper could be objectively superior to Delhi for commerce due to the extra river tiles, Delhi has a potential head start, and if we stay in Bureau it should easily beat the 1E site commerce wise. If we don't plan on building OU in Delhi then I think it severely weakens the case for cottaging spamming it.
Whilst I think 1E of copper could be objectively superior to Delhi for commerce due to the extra river tiles, Delhi has a potential head start, and if we stay in Bureau it should easily beat the 1E site commerce wise. If we don't plan on building OU in Delhi then I think it severely weakens the case for cottaging spamming it.
shyuhe
Deity
Do we want to consider the possibility of a spy based game here? A single spy will get us most of the classical techs that we need while we bulb down liberalism. Although we'd probably need cottages to get to col/alphabet (so that we can pop a GSpy as the first Gperson).
We will have to steal from Joao I suppose then but we won't have open borders. A great spy will worth around 3k beakers. We will have to delay academy quite a lot and built 7-8 spies probably. -2diplo can be mitigated w/ a liberated city.
Interesting idea but it looks quite a gamble and risky.
Interesting idea but it looks quite a gamble and risky.
The Rook
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Looking closer... I think Delhi has more potential commerce than 1E of copper anyway (considering Oxford). I count 10 potential river cottages plus 4 non-river at the 1E site. But in Delhi, 10 river cottages + 8 non-river counting grassland hills, if we don't count them there are still a potential 16 cottages including 8 river (plus 3 possible windmills). 1E site has a better food surplus though.
@Shyuhe
Could be interesting, but it will be some time before we get to COL, and then we need a courthouse, followed by 17 turns for a spy, so that's a long way away, and we'd need to stall our scientist production. Then as Bestsss mentions, there are all kinds of potential diplo issues.
@Shyuhe
Could be interesting, but it will be some time before we get to COL, and then we need a courthouse, followed by 17 turns for a spy, so that's a long way away, and we'd need to stall our scientist production. Then as Bestsss mentions, there are all kinds of potential diplo issues.
@The Rook
There are reasons that the rice/copper/FP is a better candidate for cottages and OU.
1. 11 food plus while working on the rice, 6 FPs and copper, farms over those FPs is certainly a waste, while capital only has +4F when hiring 2 scientists and 0F if working all 3 hill tiles as well.
2. We need settlers, workers, and Axes/swords units deadly right now and we need them for quite a long time. We have room for ~ 10 cities and also some settlers to please AIs. As I mentioned, each turns we gain 3F=6H from farm, I don't see better reason to go for ~6C instead in this stage.
3. Sure we'll lose 15C from 3 cottages when they become towns, however, at that time hammer is more important and I prefer to have a capital of production powerhouse that time for wonders and units. NE and IW in capital is good combo.
Edit: 15 potential cottages in capital since there's a hidden resource. Also it's impossible to reach over size 15 in this game until very very late.
There are reasons that the rice/copper/FP is a better candidate for cottages and OU.
1. 11 food plus while working on the rice, 6 FPs and copper, farms over those FPs is certainly a waste, while capital only has +4F when hiring 2 scientists and 0F if working all 3 hill tiles as well.
2. We need settlers, workers, and Axes/swords units deadly right now and we need them for quite a long time. We have room for ~ 10 cities and also some settlers to please AIs. As I mentioned, each turns we gain 3F=6H from farm, I don't see better reason to go for ~6C instead in this stage.
3. Sure we'll lose 15C from 3 cottages when they become towns, however, at that time hammer is more important and I prefer to have a capital of production powerhouse that time for wonders and units. NE and IW in capital is good combo.
Edit: 15 potential cottages in capital since there's a hidden resource. Also it's impossible to reach over size 15 in this game until very very late.
The Rook
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@Duckweed
Thanks for your reasoning. If the group decides that Oxford goes in the copper site, then I don't strongly favour cottaging Delhi. I was working on the assumption that the Palace and Bureau commerce in Delhi would eventually derive the Oxford benefit.
Thanks for your reasoning. If the group decides that Oxford goes in the copper site, then I don't strongly favour cottaging Delhi. I was working on the assumption that the Palace and Bureau commerce in Delhi would eventually derive the Oxford benefit.
Here's an example that Dirk will be proud of his cottage spam in capital.
Yours -- impressive 533.8 with cottage spam with a financial leader, notice you had an extra 20% science multiplier from 2 more religions and one more trade route.
Mine -- ~400 at 100% research since I was running 10% culture due to drafting on other cities. @JammerUno although the size of city is not a big factor of trade route income, but it does exist, 2 5C in my capital of 1 size bigger.
As I said, I'd slightly prefer cottage over farm with a financial leader. However in this case, I still watermilled all possible tiles over cottage and the result was that I was low at tech rate, but not any slow at tech position and I was far ahead at infrastructures (jail, Grocer, NE, SE) and almost double production at the moment. Which situation do you like, Guys?
Yours -- impressive 533.8 with cottage spam with a financial leader, notice you had an extra 20% science multiplier from 2 more religions and one more trade route.
Mine -- ~400 at 100% research since I was running 10% culture due to drafting on other cities. @JammerUno although the size of city is not a big factor of trade route income, but it does exist, 2 5C in my capital of 1 size bigger.
As I said, I'd slightly prefer cottage over farm with a financial leader. However in this case, I still watermilled all possible tiles over cottage and the result was that I was low at tech rate, but not any slow at tech position and I was far ahead at infrastructures (jail, Grocer, NE, SE) and almost double production at the moment. Which situation do you like, Guys?
The Rook
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@Duckweed
You might well stand better in this game, but I think the example skews the city stats in your favour. It's significant that both empires are in a golden age, but your tiles mostly yield commerce AND hammers, whereas Dirk's primarily just have commerce. So that's 4 bonus hammers and 12 bonus commerce for Dirk, but I count 13 bonus hammers and 13 bonus commerce for you (and a couple of GL scientists).
Anyway, I think the extent I favour beakers or hammers in the capital is largely dependent on how the cities are configured elsewhere. For example, I often spam workshops/watermills all over the place in cities outside the capital when running Bureau and Oxford with cottages. In that scenario I may welcome a Bureau/Oxford/Academy beaker in favour of a hammer. I generally find it's easier to create good quality hammer cities than strong commerce cities (once the workshop civics are available).
You might well stand better in this game, but I think the example skews the city stats in your favour. It's significant that both empires are in a golden age, but your tiles mostly yield commerce AND hammers, whereas Dirk's primarily just have commerce. So that's 4 bonus hammers and 12 bonus commerce for Dirk, but I count 13 bonus hammers and 13 bonus commerce for you (and a couple of GL scientists).
Anyway, I think the extent I favour beakers or hammers in the capital is largely dependent on how the cities are configured elsewhere. For example, I often spam workshops/watermills all over the place in cities outside the capital when running Bureau and Oxford with cottages. In that scenario I may welcome a Bureau/Oxford/Academy beaker in favour of a hammer. I generally find it's easier to create good quality hammer cities than strong commerce cities (once the workshop civics are available).
@The Rook
You're right about the special hammer boost from GA, but isn't this one benefit of watermill over cottage?
This example already favors Dirk since it was a financial leader. Mostly importantly, what I wanted to show in that comparison is that my capital was way better at building infrastructures and competing for wonders, and that was the main reason my overall tech position was still better than Dirk. Furthermore, I was better prepared for an earlier war. OU at that time is not common, most of the time, you go to war before that. What do you need at that time? Yourself also want workshops in your capital at this time!
You're right about the special hammer boost from GA, but isn't this one benefit of watermill over cottage?
This example already favors Dirk since it was a financial leader. Mostly importantly, what I wanted to show in that comparison is that my capital was way better at building infrastructures and competing for wonders, and that was the main reason my overall tech position was still better than Dirk. Furthermore, I was better prepared for an earlier war. OU at that time is not common, most of the time, you go to war before that. What do you need at that time? Yourself also want workshops in your capital at this time!
The Rook
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I thought the GA bonus was too significant to ignore here . In the case of the GL I'd assumed its production would have predated the time that you turned your cottages into watermills. As far as the merits of your game next to Dirk's are concerned, I'd be surprised if the only notable difference is the way you have both managed the capital, but since I lack this knowledge I can't really comment here. Anyway, if the consensus is to turn our capital into a production monster in preference to a commerce power house then that's fine with me.
In the ongoing Deity Doctorate Victoria game my capital's workshops already outnumber its cottages thank you!
. In the case of the GL I'd assumed its production would have predated the time that you turned your cottages into watermills. As far as the merits of your game next to Dirk's are concerned, I'd be surprised if the only notable difference is the way you have both managed the capital, but since I lack this knowledge I can't really comment here. Anyway, if the consensus is to turn our capital into a production monster in preference to a commerce power house then that's fine with me. Yourself also want workshops in your capital at this time!
In the ongoing Deity Doctorate Victoria game my capital's workshops already outnumber its cottages thank you!
obsolete
Deity
Sorry, its just that after reading elsewhere on this forum about cottages being over-rated, Ive been in such shock I couldnt reply. I can read it, I just dont believe it.
Are you sure!!?
---------
Current tech situation is a gamble here in many ways. We cant risk going up Aesthetics because thats a one-way street now. We can not trade that expensive gun around, so well be stuck with it and little to show for. We may not even win the library race, since again no one wanted an Ind leader, and now we are paying hefty prices for that decision. We have no marble, and are we really going to chop what little trees we have near the capital? This may not even be sufficient enough either.
I think we have no choice but to temporarily admit defeat on TGL and go for IW now. We can try to trade that wonder for extra cities. Already we have one target East, and we should gun for it now. The question is, do we go for barracks now in Gold-City, or wait until we are sure we have an Iron resource to hook up? It is very inefficient to built a sword for attacking cities and not getting the CR boost.
Anyhow, we could do a temp.-gambit. By going for writing first and then re-evaluate after that. However, I dont see that much point in this. We still dont have a unit in time to scout our terrain south of capital for marble, and it is too early to build libraries, while too late to use this tech for OB.
Anyhow, we have great odds for getting Iron in the BFC IIRC, so IW it will have to be. Each turn we delay capturing barb cities, is another turn our enemies get to do it for us.
Subtract the extra GA hammer, my capital's production was still almost double as Dirk's.I thought the GA bonus was too significant to ignore here
I thought the GA bonus was too significant to ignore here
In the ongoing Deity Doctorate Victoria game my capital's workshops already outnumber its cottages thank you!
IIRC you have not laid down 1 single cottage in capital. I put 2 there. You were playing a financial leader, how could you ignore the more powerful cottages?
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