The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[Duckweed]

Sorry, it’s just that after reading elsewhere on this forum about cottages being over-rated, I’ve been in such shock I couldn’t reply. I can read it, I just don’t believe it.

Are you sure!!?

There have been many games played skipping cottages and demonstrated amazing tech rate already. However, you don't need to believe it.

If I tell you TGL is overrated for Gandhi and not worth the effort, do you believe it?

 

[The Rook]

IIRC you have not laid down 1 single cottage in capital. I put 2 there. You were playing a financial leader, how could you ignore the more powerful cottages?

Ahem* I put "1" cottage in the capital. Perhaps you will recall that my empire is quite short on land/cities, and cottages stink at building cannons.

Frederick is keeping my cottages warm.

 

[Dirk1302]

@Duckweed, cottages aside , what's the infatuation with enormous production in capital. You can't build more than 1 unit/turn in capital and wonderspamming is a bit suspect imo anyway. I far prefer my capital in the liz game to yours for that reason. Better to focus your other cities a bit more on production. I'm getting a bit annoyed at all these examples you're spamming. It's hard to compare things without giving a full picture of the empires. I'm way too lazy to go into these details myself, i do remember i won all the games you mentioned easily.

Your examples are all from > 1000 AD btw, cottages around capital are strongest in early game and early mid game when you don't have a big source of other commerce like TR's and the possibility to trade like mad with other ais. Build them early and they can be villages around 1000 bc. And that's what we really need in this game where trade opportunities are so limited.

You say somewhere that cottages with a philosophical leader is a clear mistake. A ridiculous statement imo. With a philosophical leader you can get gpp easily anyway without building GL Part,Ne and those sort of things, building these wonders without marble would be a mistake imo. You don't need that much food surplus either, just run some 4 scientists in a few cities and you'll have all the gp you need.

 

[Duckweed]

@Duckweed, cottages aside , what's the infatuation with enormous production in capital. You can't build more than 1 unit/turn in capital and wonderspamming is a bit suspect imo anyway.

Production is almost never enough in most games, even with my capital of a production powerhouse, I need more than 1 turn to produce a cav. What's your point and I'd like see an example before factory.

It's hard to compare things without giving a full picture of the empires.

The 1st 2 cases showed the full empire view.

I'm way too lazy to go into these details myself, i do remember i won all the games you mentioned easily.

IIRC, you did not see a clear wining position even after you conquered 3 AIs in the Toku game, furthermore, you were lucky enough to develop your empire without being DOWed before your 1st offense war. If you think such a game as an easy one, then I have nothing to say. Even I won that game in early 1600AD, I feel that game was one of the most difficult game I have played.

Your examples are all from > 1000 AD btw, cottages around capital are strongest in early game and early mid game when you don't have a big source of other commerce like TR's and the possibility to trade like mad with other ais. Build them early and they can be villages around 1000 bc. And that's what we really need in this game where trade opportunities are so limited.

Commerce or faster land grabbing in current stage?

You say somewhere that cottages with a philosophical leader is a clear mistake. A ridiculous statement imo. With a philosophical leader you can get gpp easily anyway without building GL Part,Ne and those sort of things, building these wonders without marble would be a mistake imo. You don't need that much food surplus either, just run some 4 scientists in a few cities and you'll have all the gp you need.

4 scientists = 8 food, how any cities can afford that? your cottaged capital? or the copper city?

I'm getting a bit annoyed at all these examples you're spamming.

No need, it's a friendly discussion and I believe I did not use an offensive tone 1st and that is something I don't like for a discussion. You don't need to believe it, but other players can get something from a real discussion. The Rook have been against me on this issue all the time and did the contrary thing in his game, but I enjoy the discussion with him.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I plan on playing in a few hours but not until I've had a chance to go back over everything in the last 4 pages.

 

[The Rook]

The Rook have been against me on this issue all the time and did the contrary thing in his game, but I enjoy the discussion with him.

Come on Duckweed, when have I advocated spamming cottages in any capital regardless of the circumstances?

You obviously didn't read:

Anyway, I think the extent I favour beakers or hammers in the capital is largely dependent on how the cities are configured elsewhere. .

or

If the group decides that Oxford goes in the copper site, then I don't strongly favour cottaging Delhi. I was working on the assumption that the Palace and Bureau commerce in Delhi would eventually derive the Oxford benefit.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Oracle BIDL and look at the pretty pictures

Hey look, we gots writing!

I am angry RAHR!!!

But I am not... meow.

Barb city pops off the river Stupid barbs.
Plan to settle SE of copper, might be able to culture flip the barb city if we get our library up asap.


That's it. That's the set, now let the CE vs SE discussion resume!
Settler should be ready to whip next turn to go and get copper. Capital has granary so is good for whippin.

 

[shyuhe]

You want to whip Delhi down to size 2 with an empty granary?

 

[PaulisKhan]

Actually, I wanted to put the overflow into the settler, we can swap off it if you want but the sonner we get our copper hooked up, the better. I really don't see an option.
For simple reasons like AI going into WHEOOHRN mode.
I'd say it's almost guaranteed that Monte is coming for us. The other team is too far away.



Sigh, I forgot to revolt to Hindu.

 

[bestsss]

It's probably us and it's total war unless Ragnar has border w/ Churchill/Willem. We have like 10 turns, if so.

Btw, there is no save.

 

[The Rook]

Now that the Gruesome Twosome have enough on their hands and another barb city has appeared, I think that adds weight to heading for IW immediately. Diplo won't save us now Monty/Ragnar have assigned a target, let's hope it's Willem/Churchill.

I think we need to decide whether we settle 1E or 1SE of copper. If we plan to build Oxford in this copper city (as Duckweed considered), then 1E includes more FP (and rice in first ring). With 1SE, I suspect that by the time we reach a second border pop there will be a risk that Toku/Joao will have already captured the barb city, unless we intervene.

@PK
Do we know where Willem/Churchill are? I think Monty/Ragnar met them very early, and most likely mutual worst enemies too.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Inland sea guarantees that Will/Church are in the N/NW.

We have the Monte team to our E/NE and Joao/Toku to the W.

Will go upload the save

 

[Duckweed]

Just checked the last save, Monty's team was already at WHEOOHRN mode. No one has found that, will we say bye to this game? If they go for us, they are going to send cats soon.

 

[PaulisKhan]

There's nothing we could have done differently, I've put us on the quickest path to hooking up metal.

I'm not giving up just yet, but I'd prefer teching something we could use to buy peace with.

 

[bestsss]

Just checked the last save, Monty's team was already at WHEOOHRN mode. No one has found that, will we say bye to this game? If they go for us, they are going to send cats soon.

We suck . Hard x.x
-----

Only choice to tech is alphabet (regarding peace) and I dont think w/o losing bombay we can buy peace, so it's pretty much over unless the random is the luckiest one (unlikely) and two archers defeat them all...

 

[bestsss]

Can we settle the hill NW (1n/3w) of bombay or there is a city already.

 

[The Rook]

I agree it looks pretty futile if the Gruesome Twosome are after us, as it seems probable that Joao/Toku will also target us at some stage. Is it not possible that Willem/Churchill are targets though? They might be very close to Ragnar/Monty, and are most probably their worst enemies.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd rather try gifting them a city as peace. We still have to survive an assault though.

 

[Duckweed]

The major problem is how to defend the 1st wave attack, we need to defend for at least ~10 turns. If we can, then a settler is cheaper than any tech.

@Pauliskhan

Before cats, archers are almost as effective as axes behind the wall, so I don't think hurrying up the settler is a good idea. Have you calculated how many worker turns needed to connected the copper to Delhi if you whip the settler next turn? IIRC, the consensus goes for grow to size 7 before worker or settler build.

I never give up on any early DOW in a deity game, but this is a deity team game!

So tech masonry->IW next seems reasonable. We need wall and barrack up in Bombay and barrack and archers from Delhi as many as possible to fight a war close to hopeless.

 

[Duckweed]

We suck so it's pretty much over unless the random is the luckiest one (unlikely) and two archers defeat them all...

Willem team is clearly their worst enemy and we don't have any border contact with Monty yet. Probably we are closer, but isn't worst enemy thing making quite a lot difference? I remember a game posted by ABCF a while ago, the human player was the only one bordering GK and in his game GK went for his worst enemy Izzy who was far away.

I also think your proposed corner hill site could be a good choice for 3rd city for a coming defensive war.