The last challenge -- Team game -- Deity trial

[bestsss]

The max war plan can be 20 turns for normal.

else if (AI_getWarPlanStateCounter((TeamTypes)iI) > ((20 * iTimeModifier) / 100))
	{
		AI_setWarPlan(((TeamTypes)iI), NO_WARPLAN);
	}

iTimeModifier is 100 for normal [unless the AI has over 200(!) more power, it was supposed to be 2 but there is a bug in the code]

The AI doesn't wait for catapults, just enough troops for attack

if (bTargets)
{
	if ((countNumAIUnitsByArea(pArea, UNITAI_ATTACK) + countNumAIUnitsByArea(pArea, UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY) + countNumAIUnitsByArea(pArea, UNITAI_PILLAGE) + countNumAIUnitsByArea(pArea, UNITAI_ATTACK_AIR)) > (((AI_countMilitaryWeight(pArea) * iOffensiveThreshold) / 100) + 1))
	{
		return AREAAI_OFFENSIVE;
	}
}

Once the AREAAI_OFFENSIVE is returned the AI will start marching.
UNITAI_XXX are types that the AI can possible use to attack city.

The number of the units must be more than number of (cities+population) divided by 4 for total war. The AI totally doesn't care if will attack w/ warriors or catapults (or modern armor) once it has passed the initial power threshold. And the units fall in the UNITAI_XXX roles above, catapults promoted to barrage are actually not counted since they are most likely UNITAI_COLLATERAL.

War is a team decision so it calculates the units/cities/population of all the members.
-----
I'd be glad we can fit 5 archers/1axe/1spear and walls on the hill city by the time attacking. I'd dedicate delhi/bombay for units and perhaps start growing cottages in the copper city.

 

[The Rook]

@ The Rook
You need to change your plan toward full war preparation.

I haven't made a plan yet, that's for the team to decide. I've just raised my concerns and offered some suggestions. We are stuck between a rock and a hard place, it's easy to stagnate economy/expansion here or neglect defence. It is likely that whatever we choose to do will leave us lacking in some other department. So I think it is important that everyone clearly states their priorities and explicitly puts forward their plan for next tech, builds(for each city), tile improvement and settling. If we are going to found this junk hill city, we need to figure out precisely when/how we will do it, and at least get the backing from the majority of the team.

 

[Duckweed]

@ The Rook

I know it's a team decision at last, but the current player need to propose the 1st plan for criticism.

My suggestion for criticism next.

Workers -- after finishing irrigating the rice, go back to Delhi to chop the forests and road to the hill site.

The new city switch the build to granary, it's too far away and too small to be able to help the incoming war, so let it focus on economy. Can probably start a worker at size 2.

Delhi -- switch to Settler next turn, around near 40H, switch to archer and 3 pop whip it at size 7. Overflow goes to an axe. next whip should be a worker, also manage the largest overflow to units -- archers mainly

Bombay -- after granary, barrack and then archers.

Tech: agree with you, finish IW and 0 at Med.

 

[Duckweed]

@ Bestsss

I trust you, but any explanation why Monty has not started to gather and march his SOD toward us? At least 16 turns past and he has enough offensive units already.

 

[bestsss]

1st. AI is sort of honorable and never starts a total war in less than 10 turns (limited are started on the 6th turn, but that's not limited war)

2nd. (the reason) Monty and Ragnar (he had low power) dont have enough units w/ the roles described above, that's the only reason the AI doesn't start a total war (besides not path which cancel the war altogether)
Units can be 'counter' or 'reserve' (UNITAI_RESERVE are the most suicidal ones) and they are not counted (but participate in the stacks). Defense units (UNITAI_CITY_DEFENSE) are not considered either. AIs can have quite a bit of them but they are not counted towards the decision, for instance spears are likely to be counter type and they are not counted. Axes are often counter (or even reserve, esp. for unit spammers like Monty). Chariots also get often into counter division. Suicide (barrage) catapults don't get considered either.
So assuming they together have 11cities and probably like 40-45 population, let's say: 55/4 = 13, 13+1=14, they need 15units (together) designated for attack which they don't have yet.
---
Bottom line, many (or most) of the units produced during peace time are simply not "city attack", so they have to build the offense.

 

[Duckweed]

Thanks. Bestsss.

 

[obsolete]

One important issue I haven't seen mentioned yet. When the the stupid AI moves their SoD next to our border, do we just bend over and take it up the rear, or should we decide to DoW first. This would allow us to possibly live and fight another day due to 1/2 RTT, on the other hand, it will probably kill us down the road due to permanent worst-enemies.

 

[shyuhe]

If we declare and get peace, it's pretty likely they'll declare on us in the future since it'll take ages to get them above cautious.

 

[Dirk1302]

@bestsss, it's certainly not unlikely that we're the target but why is it so sure? We have no idea how border situation is between Willem and Ragnar. Also i can see Ragnar having more than 85% of Willem_team power easily which ever way you calculate it. I have doubts about Duckweed's cat idea too. Ai just declares when it's ready, it's far too stupid to wait for something like cats. Unfortunately if it hits construction it will build some cats but it certainly doesn't prepare for them afaik. Anyway we're just going to win this game, ais are stupid and we're here to show it.

 

[bestsss]

Dirk,
Ragnar had 5 cities only and since Monty has spread towards us, Ragnar has started north of him and blocked him. I don't see how Ragnar could have gotten border contact w/ Willem's having 5 cities only. Basically it should take at least 2 cities on the border.
We don't see yet any city of Toku, Joao, so Churchill/Willem would have not spread that much east either.

I used the soldiers in the demo screen and the graph from our espionage (there is a screenshot from). It's visible Ragnar is the rival w/ the lowest power (98k from demo screen) and Monty the one w/ the highest (~124k from demo), avg being 110k. I used our power rating (we know it was 44k) to scale for theirs.
With 188k max power to declare, no other team would have had so low (we know no one has less than 98k).

 

[bestsss]

Also there is something called "attacked recent", which increases the odds to get declared (I mean if we declare on them). Generally AIs are super cautious and on their toes if attacked recently.
Most likely we will get declared like 15 turns after the peace deal.

 

[The Rook]

Thanks Duckweed for your clear suggestions. I'd appreciate it if the rest of the team could follow with theirs, including at least builds (each city) and worker priorities for the next 5/6 turns. I plan to pause when IW is finished, in case any team members have ideas that revolve around swords (I understand Shyuhe was interested in capturing some barb cities earlier).

What are people's thoughts on settling the junk hill city NE of Bombay? I understand Duckweed, Bestsss and Dirk are in favour, Shyuhe sounded skeptical. Dirk suggested settling the moment we get declared on, wouldn't that make getting walls up difficult? Bestsss considered 5archers/1axe/1spear/walls to be decent start garrison, Duckweed suggests >15 archers (I fear for our economy/expansion). I'm not criticising btw, it's easiest thing in the world to poke holes in a plan when the situation is near futile, we might well need 15+ fortified units on a hill to stand a chance of fending off Monty/Ragnar. Knowing our luck, if we make a real commitment to defence, Monty/Ragnar will be VERY slow to respond, and the moment we invest one hammer into our economy, they'll send 50 units.


My suggestions (mostly copied from my earlier lengthy post):

Tech: IW-accumulate gold-Meditation (heading for Monarchy)

Worker: Finish rice and head for forested hill in Delhi/Bombay to chop forest and improve mine.

Delhi: There are so many tasks for our workers and we only have 2, Bombay needs extra food/hammers, Vijay needs cottages, forests need chopping, and if we found junk city we need more roads too. So switch to worker next turn, once complete finish archer timing with growth to size 7. With options to whip settler with overflow, or whip some units if we have already been DoWed.

Bombay: Bestsss 98% certainty that war is imminent has persuaded me to favour barracks in preference to library/GS after finishing the granary. 1T in plains forest will ensure the granary completes in 3 with precisely 50% food. Bombay needs to grow and work more farms/mines if it is to make a valuable contribution to production though. Perhaps chopping some forests for faster barracks would help?

Vijay: Monument, grow and work cottages.

 

[The Rook]

@obsolete, shyuhe
I agree that DoWing Monty will seriously screw up our diplomacy.

BTW, doesn't Monty have a corn resource free? Perhaps we could beg for it to buy a temporary peace treaty just before war (with him being pleased)?

 

[Duckweed]

Although it's not 100% we are the target, I trust bestsss' analysis from the code and detailed data. We'd better devote all to the war.

Please post your proposal for the next set to make it easy for current player.

 

[bestsss]

I favor whipping settler in Delhi, chop barracks in Bombay. But don't chop the forest next to the hill.
Agree on the copper city: monument/granary and grow w/ cottages.
The hill city needs to be settled and the forests chopped to get a wall there, need to move units there and fortify them as well. If they are outside the culture border we will pay the extra support

Actually the city won't be so bad after chain irrigation and especially fine if we survive the war and get some culture there (and claim the gems.... dreams)

The idea to ask something (i.e. the corn) is great. I will calculate what power ratio and which turn we might eventually get that. Per turn deals are quite weird (I don't have experience calculating them. Of course, the best would be that they get currency, so we can buy 10 extra turns with 1 gold, which we will get 100%). Demands are players based, so we can demand from Monty when he is pleased towards us.


Again, the only way that we are not the target is Ragnar having common border w/ Willem's team which I totally don't see how it could be possible but the time of decision (or even now).

 

[PaulisKhan]

hi guys, just wanted to let you know that I'm withdrawing from the game. I'm just not enjoying civ any more so I'm taking a break.

Good luck with this one =)

 

[Duckweed]

^ No problem. Farewell.

 

[bestsss]

Last night I found something weird in the code, even if the AIs might be preparing for war and not finished the preparation they can use the newly produced (and not only, any) troops to hunt barbarian cities as long as the city is in 10 turns movement range (or was tiles?) and there are 3 troops ready to hunt.

The good thing about that is it slows down the war preparation and stack assembling since even if the AI has enough troops to consider itself ready to war they might not be stacked. How many minimum troops AI puts in a stack of doom is largely random (and a bit dependent on the current era). I mean if the troops are scattered the AI may send them in portions which would be very good.

Once the AI considers itself ready for war it stops purposely hunting barbarian cities, though (still might decide to attack some).
---
To find where the AIs assemble their stack we need to look for CR promos which is the prime promo AI gives to 'attack city' unit_ai.

 

[Duckweed]

@The Rook

Please move on when you feel ready. It seems others won't post more suggestions.

 

[The Rook]

I expect to play tomorrow. This is the plan, trying to respect the input recieved (thanks bestsss, Duckweed), so if anything rings alarm bells people have about 24 hours to intervene:

Delhi: The majority have suggested settler, so this will be the first build, putting 3 pop whip overflow into axe and regrow...

Bombay: Granary-Barracks-Units.

Vijay: Monument-Worker(at size 2). Work copper for 5 turns, then farm for 2 turns to reach size 2. Will switch to archer for one turn when working farm for growth to put 1 hammer in for emergency whipping if Monty sends stray units to attack. New worker can make cottages near city.

Workers: As unanimously agreed, and will chop barracks in Bombay if I have the chance, but will avoid chopping any forests that can be put into junk city's walls.

Other: Warrior will scout Monty's terrain for updates on potential stack build up. Will send surplus archer based in capital to future junk city site (2N 3E of Bombay).


@PK: Goodbye, but you'll be back!