[RD] The Last Jedi – Another Cold Rehash

hobbsyoyo said:
The political background is pertinant to the movie! While the original trilogy wasn't as politics-heavy as the prequels, it was still a big factor. We got next to nothing in this movie.

And I thought the First Order (LOL I originally typed the Remnant) was operating outside of the Republic and the Resistance are operating as rebels in that extra-Republic territory. And Resistance is their name - how are they not rebels?

In any case I'd put out there that the fact that we're even having this argument shows how piss poor of a job that movie did at setting up the new reality.
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I mean, I'm not going to watch a movie about river trout and then complain about how the movie didn't show me where the river trout come from. Knowing that information might enhance my enjoyment but it's certainly not a requirement.

The First Order is not a part of the New Republic so it operates outside of the Republic automatically. The Resistance exists within New Republic space and is made up of New Republic citizens/personnel. Most of the Resistance chain of command are people who were originally in the New Republic military or senate and joined the paramilitary group because they believed in the threat the First Order posed. They aren't rebels because they aren't rebelling. They don't come from First Order worlds, they aren't subjugated by the First Order, and they utilize New Republic materiel and resources.

I use "paramilitary group" deliberately here. The Resistance is structured like a traditional military and focuses almost entirely on guerrilla warfare.
 
Synsensa said:
I mean, I'm not going to watch a movie about river trout and then complain about how the movie didn't show me where the river trout come from. Knowing that information might enhance my enjoyment but it's certainly not a requirement.

The First Order is not a part of the New Republic so it operates outside of the Republic automatically. The Resistance exists within New Republic space and is made up of New Republic citizens/personnel. Most of the Resistance chain of command are people who were originally in the New Republic military or senate and joined the paramilitary group because they believed in the threat the First Order posed. They aren't rebels because they aren't rebelling. They don't come from First Order worlds, they aren't subjugated by the First Order, and they utilize New Republic materiel and resources.

I use "paramilitary group" deliberately here. The Resistance is structured like a traditional military and focuses almost entirely on guerrilla warfare.
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This is a joke right? Half of what I watch is nature documentaries. If I watched a trout doc (and I just finished one on fungi so it's not far fetched), I absolutely would want to know where they come from.

I get what you're trying to say though and I agree. The backstory and galactic political situation really isn't central to all star wars movies. I agree. But this movie does such a terrible job of telling you what the major players are and their relationship to each other that it deserves critism.

It has the burden of existing in a complete universe so it should do a better job of explaining basics. You even said that most of what you know comes from outside of the movie. That wouldn't be a problem except that you (3rd person you) can't even understand basic facts about the situation based on the movie.

Thank you for explaining the Resistance and first order, that is all much clearer to me now.

But you shouldn't have had to explain it - I'm a bloody fan and I have seen the movie 3 times already!
 
The fact that I didnt really understand who the First Order and Resistance are and their relationship to each other is the exact problem I am pointing out. I'm not as voracious of a fan as I once was so I'm not tracking down information outside of the movie but again, I shouldn't have to do that to understand basic facts about the universe the movie is set in. And it is a political series at some level after all.
 
I guess I don't see why those details are necessary to know. The greatest feature of Star Wars is its expansive universe where you can find media of almost any kind about it. The movies are structured for your generic, casual fan, and those details aren't really things they're concerned about. The people who are concerned about those details are usually also the people who are going to consume the supplemental content. Someone who cares a lot about the political makeup of the galaxy in 34 ABY is likely also someone who will read the books, comics, and watch the shows.

It's possible that you just don't fit into that category, that you're instead someone who cares but doesn't consume additional media, but I don't know if you're the exception or the rule in that regard. I've never considered the SW movies to be where you go for the gritty details.
 
The point I'm making is that we're not talking about gritty details. This is basic stuff. Who are the bad guys? Who are the good guys? What happened to the old good guys?
 
The Force Awakens was a good movie overall, but it deserved a more detailed opening scrawl to explain galactic politics a bit better.

Also, Starkiller base needed to operate differently. Absorbing an entire star and shooting several planets with death rays through hyperspace is stupid. Being able to immediately see the destruction of planets light years away is worse.

The superweapon should not have been able to target several specific planets while leaving the rest of the system unharmed, but ruined whole systems by forcing the nearest star to collapse into a black hole. Dealing with gravitational time dilation while fighting on a planet that is being torn apart by tidal forces could have been cool.

It would also have made much more sense for R2D2 to have been captured by the First Order and rescued by Rey, rather than randomly activating at just the right moment.
 
He was not randomly activated at just the right time. He was activated by the correct stimulus, which they had not had before.

J
 
It's funny how certain fans don't seem to be able to conceptualise anything between obsessive Expanded Universe devotees and mindless popcorn munchers who don't care about anything other than explosions.

When you have an old trilogy of films that's about a good/American bunch of under-resourced rebels fighting against a powerful, evil/English empire, and that trilogy ends with the rebels seemingly toppling said empire, then it's just a really odd decision to have the next film in the series (chronologically) show essentially exactly the same under-resourced rebels fighting against the same powerful evil empire without any explanation. "You don't need to know where the trout come from" is not really an adequate metaphor for this. I mean... you need to know where the trout come from if you're watching a follow-up documentary revisiting a river where they previously showed all the trout dying out. And you shouldn't have to read a spin-off novel (in either case) to have this explained.
 
Every Star Wars movie was like this though, wasn't it? - the scrolly thingy explains the setting in a very brief and vague manner, and then the story focuses in on a couple key character as they explore this setting and we slowly learn more and more about it via their actions.

The scrolly was never meant to clue us in on the details of the setting, but rather to help explain the subsequent actions of the characters.
 
The Force Awakens had by far the shortest and least informative opening scrawl of any Star Wars film (excluding Rouge One, which had none). None of them showed whole novels, but all explained a bit more backstory than episode 7 did.
 
Manfred Belheim said:
It's funny how certain fans don't seem to be able to conceptualise anything between obsessive Expanded Universe devotees and mindless popcorn munchers who don't care about anything other than explosions.

When you have an old trilogy of films that's about a good/American bunch of under-resourced rebels fighting against a powerful, evil/English empire, and that trilogy ends with the rebels seemingly toppling said empire, then it's just a really odd decision to have the next film in the series (chronologically) show essentially exactly the same under-resourced rebels fighting against the same powerful evil empire without any explanation. "You don't need to know where the trout come from" is not really an adequate metaphor for this. I mean... you need to know where the trout come from if you're watching a follow-up documentary revisiting a river where they previously showed all the trout dying out. And you shouldn't have to read a spin-off novel (in either case) to have this explained.
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It's funny how certain people respond to direct points made by one specific person but try to wave it off like a vague representation. And by that I mean you're funny, because you do this in every thread.

Star Wars has literally never been intended to be an in-depth, explained political drama that stands on its own merits on the film screen. The movies have always been presented as space opera, something you can watch with your family and not need to know too much about in order to enjoy. That you aren't satisfied the movies aren't two hour episodes of House of Cards has no bearing on whether or not the films fail to convey what they need to convey. For the enjoyment of most people, the details that are being belly-ached about are wholly unnecessary. They can enhance the content but they do not make it, and if you're the type of person where you need to know that information in order to enjoy it then that is entirely your problem and your issue to solve. Star Wars provides a few avenues for people to do that if they so please, be it through simple Wiki write-ups or reading literature about it.

That you are intent on seeing Episode 7 as "literally the same, no changes, no explanations, it's all wack" demonstrates only that you are choosing to be willfully ignorant or that you watched the movie in a drunken stupor and are relying on broken memories to wade your way through the conversation. Both approaches are ones easily dismissed because you ultimately add nothing to the conversation except to try and antagonize people while patting yourself on the back about it.

If you want to know the political quagmire of the galaxy in 34 ABY when TFA takes place, there are options available for that. To condemn a movie that was never supposed to explain it for not explaining it is pointless. You might as well complain that your toaster can't wash your clothes.
 
Mind you I think that they made episode 7 a bit more mysterious on purpose, leading to a less descriptive scrawly thingy at the beginning. IMO they are choosing to keep some things secret so that they can be revealed as the next 2 movies unfold. Essentially treating the whole trilogy as one long movie. George Lucas didn't have this luxury with the first 3 movies, because he never knew that the first one would be so popular that there would be sequels.

As for space operas, there can be in-depth and interesting space operas with well defined and explained political and geopolitical backdrops. Space operas aren't always fluffy entertainment that ignores a lot of the backdrop. But in this case that's sort of what star wars has always been, IMO
 
warpus said:
As for space operas, there can be in-depth and interesting space operas with well defined and explained political and geopolitical backdrops. Space operas aren't always fluffy entertainment that ignores a lot of the backdrop. But in this case that's sort of what star wars has always been, IMO
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I honestly can't think of a single successful space opera that has that. Soft-sci, definitely. Deep Space Nine did a pretty good job, and that's only because there's 110+ hours of it.

Don't get me wrong, I think Star Wars and politics can go well together. I'd be interested in a series that focuses on it, I loved the politicking in the prequels. But to consider political backdrop as a necessity seems suspect if that argument is being made on a general basis and not a personal preference basis.
 
Synsensa said:
I honestly can't think of a single successful space opera that has that. Soft-sci, definitely. Deep Space Nine did a pretty good job, and that's only because there's 110+ hours of it.
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I suppose I had my mind on the space opera books I have read, as opposed to space opera TV shows or movies. I admit it seems easier to accomplish in written form - although IMO a lot of authors fail at it nevertheless. It can be a challenge to find a solid space opera story that works and isn't just bland entertainment with no substance. But those stories are out there! Maybe they don't translate well to the screen, but having been exposed to great space opera stories that don't lack depth, I have to question the classification of "space opera" as a story that only shines on the surface
 
Synsensa said:
It's funny how certain people respond to direct points made by one specific person but try to wave it off like a vague representation.
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Well, assuming you mean "general" instead of "vague", I'd have to disagree because I have seen exactly that kind of response all over the internet whenever this comes up...

"Why is there still a Rebellion/Empire?"

"It's not the Rebellion/Empire, it's the Resistance/First Order."

"But it's exactly the same."

"No it's not. The background is explained in the novels and the average audience doesn't care or need to know anyway." [this is pretty much exactly what the last sentence in your post said]

So it is in fact a general observation and not aimed at any one person in this thread. Is it even just one person saying that sort of thing here?


Edit: Also kind of ironic that you're attributing the "literally the same, no changes" thing to me, when it wasn't me who said that.
 
I agree that this whole "filling in the blanks with novels and other media most people won't read or watch" is a stupid approach that I highly dislike. However, I remain convinced that the movies can stand on their own, and that so far they have.
 
I did not find the Force Awakens to be that similar to New Hope. Yes there are similarties but it is like saying that Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is a copy of the Original trilogy just because KOTOR have alot of references and other recognizable stuff.
 
MagisterCultuum said:
The Force Awakens was a good movie overall, but it deserved a more detailed opening scrawl to explain galactic politics a bit better.

Also, Starkiller base needed to operate differently. Absorbing an entire star and shooting several planets with death rays through hyperspace is stupid. Being able to immediately see the destruction of planets light years away is worse.

The superweapon should not have been able to target several specific planets while leaving the rest of the system unharmed, but ruined whole systems by forcing the nearest star to collapse into a black hole. Dealing with gravitational time dilation while fighting on a planet that is being torn apart by tidal forces could have been cool.

It would also have made much more sense for R2D2 to have been captured by the First Order and rescued by Rey, rather than randomly activating at just the right moment.
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They'll probably do that in Episode 9... especially since as we're being told repeatedly... all Star Wars does is rehash old Star Wars with not so much as an ounce of originality :ack: :lol:
 
Sommerswerd said:
They'll probably do that in Episode 9... especially since as we're being told repeatedly... all Star Wars does is rehash old Star Wars with not so much as an ounce of originality :ack: :lol:
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Hahaha even 4000 years before the events in Star Wars movies everything was just the same:goodjob:
 
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