The Layers of Hell

[Kael]

Lots of good questions. A "good person" who isnt religious (ie: isnt claimed by a good god) goes to Arawn's realm. "Bad people" are supposed to go to hell, though their amount of wickedness determines where they are dumped. The swamp gets the vast majority of these.

Thats how it is supposed to work. But the agents of hell are ever eager to collect as many souls as possible, even those that rightfully belong in other vaults. They fight for these souls when the people are alive, and they continue to fight for them when the people die. The swamps of Mulcarns realm hold many spirits that may not have been greatly virtuous, but dont deserve the eternity of hell either.

Spoiler from the conclusion of Lord of the Balors :

With the light came angels, not the barbaric ones that traveled with Basium, but gentle compassionate creatures that tended to the wounded men and spirits alike. The darkest spirits had been dragged into hell when the Throne of Hell was destroyed, but thousands still remained, those stolen unfairly by the demons or trapped between the ideals of heaven and the failure of hell.

I walked among them, blessed souls seeking forgiveness, shared the pain with those who had carried it alone for so long. Other members of my army were the same, weary but unwilling to stop tending to these souls. It was as if we rescued a kingdom under a cruel despot, but no one had suffered as horribly as these souls had. For many it was the first kindness they had experienced in centuries.

 

[Senethro]

So where was Tebryn before being picked up by Ceridwen? And did Charadon have enough Winter inside him to tolerate Mulcarn's vault reasonably well before whatever arcane ritual pulled him back? Baron Duin Halfmorn gives the impression of having made it as far as Camulos at least.

 

[Tyrs]

I feel like Tebryn was probably underneath Camulos hell getting tortured horrifically. Thus him willing to do anything to avoid go back

 

[Duruk]

He said it to me, he was pleading with me and commanding me at the same time. I tried to follow it, everything except Cassiel seemed distant. I could see Abagail at my feet, the rest was clouds of grey flowing into each other. I looked at these clouds, there were shapes in them, figures, faces. And I began to see other spirits in them. Men and women, orcs and elves, children and adults, all caught in their own grey worlds.

-Cassiel's civilopedia entry.
Where are all these spirits, exactly? Is Elizabeth having visions of Arwan's vault, or are they someplace else?

 

[Kael]

Yeah, she was one of the unclaimed good people so she was seeing into Arawns vault.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Speaking of Cassiel...

Spoiler :

I wonder what vault he went to. Seems like he may be in Mulcarn's wastes. I wonder if he is too depressed to even move on and try to push up past the throne for his way out...

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

Kael Quick question about the "conclusion of Lord of the Balors"..

Spoiler :

the Throne of Hell was destroyed

I remember this part of the victory, and it did have me wondering. What does this mean actually, does in mean Mulcarn's vault was destroyed?

 

[Kael]

Kael Quick question about the "conclusion of Lord of the Balors"..

Spoiler :

I remember this part of the victory, and it did have me wondering. What does this mean actually, does in mean Mulcarn's vault was destroyed?

No, the Throne of Hell isnt Mulcarns vault, it is the portal between Mulcarn's Vault and Erebus. Note that it isn't the only portal between the worlds, it was the most used but bad people are still going to hell.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

as it should be

 

[xienwolf]

Just to catch up on previous conversation where a minor math error was made:



Mammon's Hell stated that each entrant is granted a single coin and issued into the city, but they need 7 coins to get out.


People have been stating that this means it is impossible for more than 1 in every 7 people to move beyond Mammon's Vault. This is not true however. As Kael stated:

Occasionally Mammon will take those that seem stuck and wipe their memories, forcing them to restart their entry into the city, but sometimes he leaves them be.

The people would think something off was happening if they walked into the city with no memories, weren't given anything at all, and slowly realized that everyone else got a coin on entry. Thus each time Mammon "Resets" an individual, he is adding another coin to his hell and making it possible for more than 1 in 7 to escape to the next layer.

 

[Lade]

Then what happened to Mulcarn when he died?

 

[Giga-Gigan]

So I'm alittle fuzzy, I know that the people of Erebus often don't know the nature of the divine. So often times their sects and beliefs that no basis in reality, what happens to those who worship false gods?

edit: I believe that he probably went to the Netherworld like Sully. The former god of nature. I should really take the time to memorize their spellings.

 

[KillerClowns]

Let me see if I'm reading this right. Being neutral might send you to Mulcarn's vault, but there's a difference between a peasant not caring about the fate of the world because he's too busy struggling to survive and a wealthy gentleman of leisure who, although not actively malevolent and essentially harmless, throws away money on indulgences and doesn't really care about anyone outside of his own circle of friends. The former would find himself in Arwan's vault, unless his religion sent him elsewhere, or the forces of Hell actively intervened, while the latter would likely be fated for Mulcarn's vault.
Short version seems to be "if in doubt, Arwan gets 'em, unless they were worthless layabouts, in which case they're off to Mulcarn."

 

[Monkeyfinger]

So the Manes that we actually see in-game are evil souls snagged by Hyborem before they could pass into whichever layer of hell they were bound for?

Where does someone who, say, actively worships Camulos and carries out acts of gory violence in his name go when he dies? I don't mean a particularly violent demonologist from a Veil sect or anything, just something like a clan brute who heard of this god who fits his lifestyle and decided to worship him.

 

[Lade]

So the Manes that we actually see in-game are evil souls snagged by Hyborem before they could pass into whichever layer of hell they were bound for?

Thats what it sounds like, though you think Hyborem could also "trade" souls for full demons (The gods say, you give us x amount of fresh souls and we give you one trained demon)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

People have been stating that this means it is impossible for more than 1 in every 7 people to move beyond Mammon's Vault. This is not true however. As Kael stated:

Actually, what I was saying was that either much more than a few people stayed in mammons hell, or that much more often than occasionally did memory wiped people re-enter with new coins.

Kael cleared it up, though--only a few chose to stay, but many, many are simply stuck.

I'd expect much less than 1 in 7 make it through even still, though, since many of those who stay probably do so because they've become powerful by tricking large numbers of souls out of their coins.

Where does someone who, say, actively worships Camulos and carries out acts of gory violence in his name go when he dies? I don't mean a particularly violent demonologist from a Veil sect or anything

I expect that devoted, influencial followers of a god go right to his vault, staying out of this process. The vast majority, though, start at the beginning regardless of the particular god they followed.

 

[cyther]

Then what happened to Mulcarn when he died?

I believe that Mulcarn was trapped inside his palace and remained there untill Auric came along/ was born.



About Esus's hell, is it possible to escape or will the souls be unable to escape the Hells ever. For example if a soul only wanted to escape hell so they would not be there, would the vault not counter it?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I would assume that Auric was conceived at the very moment that Mulcarn lost his life, and immediately filled with the god's divine spark. There could have been a small delay, but probably no longer than the delay it would normally take for a soul to be drawn into the Netherworld or the Throne of Hell.



I'm still wondering how Laroth didn't go to hell. He certainly seems evil enough. Did he somehow convince the evil gods with a claim to his soul that he would be more useful to them in the Netherworld?





Simply wanting to escape hell would never be enough for one to escape; one must develop and display the virtues counter to the vices that the hells are meant to engender and enhance in order to escape. The selfish motive of simply not wanting to suffer is not a virtue that would help one escape. Well, I can think of one exception, but I don't think Tebryn's escape will last, and few would have the strength to even make such a deal. It would pretty much take valuing something greater than oneself in order to drive someone to improve oneself enough to get out. Esus's hell is designed to make what was driving one to escape seem pointless, so as to remove the drive needed in order to resist the corruption of hell.

I would probably say that Esus's hell can be escaped just like any other hell, by displaying the virtues opposite his sphere (honesty, devotion to truth, discernment, basically the Empyrean values). I imagine a scene like that in the Aeneid (which I believe was borrowed by Dante) with 2 gates in hell, where the larger and more beautiful one leads to tartarus and the small uglier one leading to the Elysian Fields. Of course, in this case it would be a gate leading out of hell instead of into the underworld, where one must take the less hopeful looking path to escape for real. Actually, I'm thinking that having the dead return to Erebus on their own without being called by by powerful life magic like that doesn't seem right, so I'd prefer to think the choice is between Esus's hell and Arawn's netherworld. Then, there is a tiny chance that one with the strength of will to overcome their own subconscious delusions made real could escape into the dark of the shadowed vale or Brandeline's Well and have a small chance of making it back into creation. Basium is no longer guarding the gate from the Netherworld into Creation like he was supposed to, so it might be a little easier than it would have been before the compact, but it would till require the help of a powerful Life archmage or of Sucellus himself to have any real shot at coming back into Erebus.

 

[KillerClowns]

...I'm still wondering how Laroth didn't go to hell. He certainly seems evil enough. Did he somehow convince the evil gods with a claim to his soul that he would be more useful to them in the Netherworld?...

My bet? He knew enough about Spirit magic to give the middle finger to the rules of death. I imagine him basically deciding, "I'm going to Arwan's netherworld when I die," and then, through a mixture of arcane skill, research regarding the soul and vaults, and pure willpower, proceeded to do just that. If he didn't land directly in Arwan's vault by shielding himself from Hell's influence, he doubtless knew the layers of Hell, including Esus' deception, well enough to smash his way out.
I like this view mostly because it's awesome, though.

 

[Giga-Gigan]

Yeah I would tend to agree, I'm all for awesome mortals, especially those who tutored under one of the most accomplished mortal of Erebus.