The Lost Civilization

[bouncymischa]

I would like to know more specifically as to why the Pueblo descendants were so offended. Did they expect his portrayal to show negative aspects somehow? Like Pepey potentially startnig aggressive wars in the game?

From what some other posters said earlier in the thread, it sounds like the Pueblo people are pretty protective of their culture, including being reluctant to allow elements of it to be photographed (as well as being reluctant to allow themselves to be photographed, in some instances). So I can imagine they found the even the idea of making a computer recreation of one of their most venerated leaders/ancestors to be a rather offensive.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

To put it in BNW terms, they have a higher Culture accumulation than our Tourism output.

 

[cybrxkhan]

or they just renamed the civ "Native Americans II" and miss-mashed a bunch of different cultures together. We get Sitting Bull, who's UA lets them build cities on mountain tiles, a totem pole UB, and a gun-powder horse UU... civ 4 all over.

I would like to know more specifically as to why the Pueblo descendants were so offended. Did they expect his portrayal to show negative aspects somehow? Like Pepey potentially startnig aggressive wars in the game?

To add to bouncymischa's point, remember that they may view what Firaxis is doing from a different perspective than we are. To us, it's just a video game. To them, it might be a very mockery of their existence and identity. SUch a viewpoint may seem "unreasonable" to us, but to them, our viewpoint is "unreasonable" as well.

 

[Arachnofiend]

A pity, but I understand the tribe's and the Civ team's decision. I just hope there is some kind of Native American representation. Still hoping for the Cherokee .

Considering the fact that we're getting a Civil War scenario that will undoubtedly feature Native American civs as third parties I would expect that we'll get at least one NA civ in the main game.

 

[MaximusK]

Considering the fact that we're getting a Civil War scenario that will undoubtedly feature Native American civs as third parties I would expect that we'll get at least one NA civ in the main game.

Why is this still being repeated? Hasn't the information clearly stated that the civil war scenario is going to be focused on the East. Native Americans were involved to an extent in the western battles but not the east.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well the above is not true entirely. The Cherokee had a part too. And if you count what the Lumbee did [Being forced into near slavery by the Confederates to build Fort Fisher, so some of the Lumbee acted as revenge killers, killing rich confederates and Homeguard members. One Lumbee killed nearly an entire squadron of troops using only a canoe (Henry Berry Lowry, who incidentally if you translate his "Wanted Bounty" into modern cash, makes him one of the top 10 most wanted outlaws ever in American History)]

But yea, the major contributions from Native Americans were on the Western Front. The Pueblo's almost inclusion/perhaps still inclusion shows that the scenario was definitively not a primary focus for inclusion of a Native American civ.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I thought the Cherokee involvement was in Missouri. In modern parlance, that's obviously not the west, but it is considered the western theater of the war. The Eastern theater is Virginia to Atlanta, not Missouri and Kentucky.

 

[Gucumatz]

There was fighting in NC too. Remember, Andrew Jackson had split up the Cherokee before the Civil War into two groups, a Western and Eastern band.

 

[Gucumatz]

A group of Members from the 2K forums is writing to the Pueblo Council about their possible inclusion into the game. Most of our messages have been on the tone of respect for their decision not to include Popé, but that this is an opportunity to teach new people about their culture and heritage that they should take the opportunity to use. If they could perhaps suggest additional information for the game to use, it would be beneficial to all.

If you all would like to leave a small message too, here is a link to contact the council.

http://www.aipcnm.org/contact-us

 

[Irkalla]

A group of Members from the 2K forums is writing to the Pueblo Council about their possible inclusion into the game. Most of our messages have been on the tone of respect for their decision not to include Popé, but that this is an opportunity to teach new people about their culture and heritage that they should take the opportunity to use. If they could perhaps suggest additional information for the game to use, it would be beneficial to all.

If you all would like to leave a small message too, here is a link to contact the council.

http://www.aipcnm.org/contact-us

I think it unwise to bother them. To even ask them to somehow go back on their decision is an insult; it's as if you're telling them that you think that they aren't as firm on their opinion as they see that they are. In other words, asking them to go back on their decision is like you're telling them that you don't think they take it seriously when, in actuality, they probably take it seriously, to a grave degree.

As for a replacement, I think the Choctaw led by Pushmataha would be a great addition, considering the focus of this expansion is diplomacy and culture. The Choctaw probably fielded the most skilled diplomats of all the native peoples.

Have a look at the guy. Doesn't he look like a baller?

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

I think it unwise to bother them. To even ask them to somehow go back on their decision is an insult; it's as if you're telling them that you think that they aren't as firm on their opinion as they see that they are. In other words, asking them to go back on their decision is like you're telling them that you don't think they take it seriously when, in actuality, they probably take it seriously, to a grave degree.

As for a replacement, I think the Choctaw led by Pushmataha would be a great addition, considering the focus of this expansion is diplomacy and culture. The Choctaw probably fielded the most skilled diplomats of all the native peoples.

Have a look at the guy. Doesn't he look like a baller?[/IMG]

I have to say, i agree. This isn't a corporation you're petitioning, this is a community. I don't imagine that civfanatics can express what the game is and can do for them any better than the people who make it can. I imagine most of them couldn't care less about making their history known either. Most of them will want to protect their culture, not flaunt it to be misappropriated; which, given the nature of civ as a eurocentric game of empire building, it will be.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

True Candyman and Irksala said it quite well. Leave them alone. Our petitions don't mean anything to them and may count against future inclusion because we are greedy to appropriate the image of their revered hero.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well to be fair, its not so much a petition me and others did, more so a letter to try and better explain what Civ could mean to get a different message out there. I wrote that I understood and agreed with their exclusion of Pope in mine. But, I did express that inclusion of their people could be a way to reach a broader audience with message they could focalize

 

[cybrxkhan]

I don't think the petition would be wise either - from what I know of these native groups, they are very, very distrustful of outsiders including and especially outsiders trying to "learn" more about their cultures. I remember a TA for one of my history classes telling us how when he got stuck with a native group in Central America one time, he had to hide the fact he was an academic, because he knew from experience if they learned he was an academic they would have chased him out of town on sight. I guess I'd feel a little suspicious if some weird dude was going around asking questions about everything, and given the unfortunate history of the native americans, imagine the level of distrust and suspicion that would be thrown into this. When this same TA went to go visit another tribe in the Southwest another time, with the intention of helping them in legal matters, he had to be extra careful and extremely cautious and reserved when dealing with them - there were quite a lot of cultural norms he had to be very careful of - and it took the natives a long, long time before they were willing to let him help them. Oh well. Frankly, though, I don't think it'd do much at the end of the day.

 

[steveg700]

I can only say it is absolutely possible to make a polite, respectful attempt to sway someone's opinion. And sometimes, it works.

They have a website. It has a link that says "Contact Us". This is a channel they have provided so that the general public can communicate with them.

 

[Villager720]

And even if they were to reverse their decision, it is almost certainly too late to go back and do his screen and potentially include the entire scrapped Civ. What's more, who's to say Firaxis would care even if they did change their minds? Firaxis didn't seem too motivated to press the Pueblo on the issue, and I doubt we should either.

 

[CivCube]

And even if they were to reverse their decision, it is almost certainly too late to go back and do his screen and potentially include the entire scrapped Civ. What's more, who's to say Firaxis would care even if they did change their minds? Firaxis didn't seem too motivated to press the Pueblo on the issue, and I doubt we should either.

Still over three months away...I'd rather they didn't contact the tribe, but if it worked, the ten-week production schedule for the leader screen would be there.

 

[Villager720]

Still over three months away...I'd rather they didn't contact the tribe, but if it worked, the ten-week production schedule for the leader screen would be there.

Ah but then they'd suddenly have 10 Civs after announcing 9. And perhaps their box art says 9 Civs, then they'd have to change that. And find a native speaker to voice the leader, call up the intro guy again and have him read some more lines, and spend time they might have allocated to other uncompleted projects (Scenarios) to rush develop a potentially incomplete Civ. Seems a bit unreasonable this late in the game.

 

[ferretbacon]

Ah but then they'd suddenly have 10 Civs after announcing 9. And perhaps their box art says 9 Civs, then they'd have to change that. And find a native speaker to voice the leader, call up the intro guy again and have him read some more lines, and spend time they might have allocated to other uncompleted projects (Scenarios) to rush develop a potentially incomplete Civ. Seems a bit unreasonable this late in the game.

I doubt that the council will change their mind and I doubt that Firaxis would bother picking up the pieces. But the easy way to include them, even with the marketing they've already done, is to include them as a preorder bonus like Babylon was for Vanilla.

 

[pokeravi]

I understand that the inclusion of the Pueblo civ might be offensive to the Council and I respect their opinion. But that doesn't mean that companies like Firaxis have to bend over backwards for them, especially if the Pueblo aren't being physically harmed with the creation of this game. There are many things people would find offensive in video games due to cultural sensitivities. Look at the Native American cultural references in Prey which would be seen as stereotypical by some. Or the inclusion of slavery in Victoria 2. Or the fact that there is a plethora of racial imagery and racism in Bioshock Infinite exhibited by the citizens of Columbia, simply because the game is being historically accurate by portraying the prevalent attitudes of people in the time period in which the game takes place. In fact, do you know that an entire sidequest in Fallout 3 was removed from the Japanese version because it involved the detonation of an atomic bomb named Fat Man?

Does the fact that some people are offended by a video game mean we should appease them and sacrifice gameplay in the process? No, and the universal human right of free speech allows people to express themselves even if others are offended. More ever, Civilization V is really a good educational game and it would be in the Pueblo's best interest for the civ to be included in BNW especially since many Americans are misinformed about Native American culture and history. I understand the Pueblo might be insulted by such an inclusion, but it's ultimately up to Firaxis. Actions like bending over backwards for the Pueblo Council set a bad precedent since other companies might follow suit and not include sensitive material in order to avoid controversy. Attempts by video games to portray the history and culture of various peoples should not be seen in a negative light. Burying history and culture only serves as a drawback that will deny future generations the opportunity to learn about the mistakes, accomplishments and the day-to-day lives of people of the past.