[BTS] The lumbermill

[sylvanllewelyn]

Good point on flat tundra forest (more specifically non-river or lake adjacent) as being THE one tile where arguably a lumbermill has value, other than chopping that forest. However, if we are talking about an early game city that happens to have these tiles, one has to ask oneself if the better benefit is to get the hammers from that forest now, given that that tile is now render basically useless. The answer is most likely yes.

To @Oaq : the above answer is my favourite so far.

Basically, if I want production to build something, I chop the forest to build it.

Often, in a space race, after the expansion phase, there is nothing I want to build. I do not want more units, settlers, workers. For some small cities, no city improvements either, because they do not payoff until after the game is over. For some small cities, I just set it on "build wealth" and, if there are forests left, I build lumbermills on them.

 

[Trout]

For my National Park city, I like to put it in a big forest, build lumbermills for lots of hammers to finish the NP. Then convert all of the forests to preserves for the free specialists after it is built. That has been the one circumstance where I find lumbermills to be worthwhile. If I place the NP city in a big jungle, it just takes too long to build.

 

[shakabrade]

For my National Park city, I like to put it in a big forest, build lumbermills for lots of hammers to finish the NP. Then convert all of the forests to preserves for the free specialists after it is built. That has been the one circumstance where I find lumbermills to be worthwhile. If I place the NP city in a big jungle, it just takes too long to build.

But do you need NP? I have realized that I never find it worthwhile enough to build it. Dont remember when I built it. Maybe some Terra map with corporation powered space could benefit from both NP and Lumbermill but it is extremely niche case, at least from my perspective. Lumbermill really needs more yield to catch up with SP and even non SP workshops. Health is also never an issue if you overlap a bit more and stop your workshop cities at size 12-13.

 

[6K Man]

Yes, the thing with NP is that by the time it's available, the age of focusing on GP generation for bulbing has passed. I still build it sometimes in Tundra cities, but I wouldn't argue that it's optimal play.

At times I've considered leaving some forests around my National Epic city to allow for a future National Park... but usually end up chopping them for something urgent, like Great Library.

 

[civac]

Late game GP should be used for GAs which are enormously powerful and the NP is not a bad idea for that purpose. Again, you have the issue that usually there won't be a viable location with enough forest/jungle left. Lumber mills would be decent improvements if they came sooner (Machinery, maybe even Metal Casting) and had less build time.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

But do you need NP? I have realized that I never find it worthwhile enough to build it. Dont remember when I built it. Maybe some Terra map with corporation powered space could benefit from both NP and Lumbermill but it is extremely niche case, at least from my perspective. Lumbermill really needs more yield to catch up with SP and even non SP workshops. Health is also never an issue if you overlap a bit more and stop your workshop cities at size 12-13.

Yikes you changed my mind. OK chop and shop then! Yes, tundra cities do not reach size 12-13 so the health is not needed. Then, I suppose, the only viable use for lumbermills is in my ironworks city, which I do want at size 20.

For my National Park city, I like to put it in a big forest, build lumbermills for lots of hammers to finish the NP. Then convert all of the forests to preserves for the free specialists after it is built. That has been the one circumstance where I find lumbermills to be worthwhile. If I place the NP city in a big jungle, it just takes too long to build.

I never had problems building my rainforest national park. Borrow farms, horses, and mines from adjacent cities. Then return the borrowed tiles and let it starve back down to one population.

Late game GP should be used for GAs which are enormously powerful and the NP is not a bad idea for that purpose. Again, you have the issue that usually there won't be a viable location with enough forest/jungle left. Lumber mills would be decent improvements if they came sooner (Machinery, maybe even Metal Casting) and had less build time.

I do not think earlier availability is the solution. When available at metal casting, I would want to chop the forest to produce things. (Obviously a more fundamental issue is why removing forests should provide production. Clearing a forest tile so you can build improvements there is already a reward.)

 

[civac]

If you need a wonder or an army at that exact moment chopping would be better.

But building a lumber mill on a plains forest after getting to Metal Casting is superior to chopping and then building a 111 cottage or a 020 workshop.

 

[coanda]

When available at metal casting, I would want to chop the forest to produce things

There is sometimes a "downtime" period where initial expansion has stopped, you have sufficient workers, and you're mostly building wealth/research/failgold in cities while teching along towards Liberalism. Especially since that would still leave the forests available, so you could potentially chop them later once you were able to build, say, Cuirassiers or Cannons with the chops.

I wouldn't expect players to have a lot of lumbermills even if the improvement was available from the start of the game, but a few of them scattered here and there wouldn't seem unlikely to me.

 

[Trout]

But do you need NP? I have realized that I never find it worthwhile enough to build it. Dont remember when I built it. Maybe some Terra map with corporation powered space could benefit from both NP and Lumbermill but it is extremely niche case, at least from my perspective. Lumbermill really needs more yield to catch up with SP and even non SP workshops. Health is also never an issue if you overlap a bit more and stop your workshop cities at size 12-13.

I may be colored in my judgment by the fact I normally play large terra maps on marathon speed in which I build corporations. In those situations, I often found or capture a city in the northern regions which has a mix of grassland forests & tundra forests. Build lumbermills for the NP, then after sushi or cereal mills expansion occurs, you can run as many as 25 scientists/merchants between the avalanche of food plus all of the free specialists from your forest preserves if you run caste civic.

So in that scenario, capturing it in the later years means key wonders such as Great Library, Pyramids, HG, and MoM have already been built. Taj is a later wonder worth building rapidly with chops but on a map that has 100+ cities, I can use another city for that purpose. But adding another 1-2 GP for late game golden ages from the NP? Yes, sir - I believe it is worth it.

 

[SnipedSoul]

Lumbermills are nice in the IW city to counter the effects until health improves. Once health is no longer a concern you can chop the forests to get massive production and replace with workshops.

 

[Gumbolt]

Can't remember ever building a lumbermill or NP. Prolly why we forgot about it on last SGOTM. Bit like building colloseums. Who does that? Unless you just like building every build in every city.

 

[krikav]

Colosseums are much more common for me than universities/observatories and most other commerce-multipliers.

Almost all cities get theatres at some point, and large cities gets colosseums too.
Almost required to keep citizens happy enough.

 

[Anysense]

In my current game I built 2 lumbermills in Ironworks city. Not sure it was a good decision - they cost so many workerturns plus railroads instead of just roads.

 

[AcaMetis]

The big downside of lumbermills is the opportunity cost of not chopping those forests back when that production makes a bigger difference. 40 early per +1 late is not a good trade in most situations. If you manage to capture a city with lumbermills lategame, sure, but your priorities circa 2000BC should not be preparing for Ironworks.