aelf
Ashen One
Why? Is there something wrong with non-European immigrants?
The Martyr from the Netherlands
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Why? Is there something wrong with non-European immigrants?
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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There are many of them who can't seem to integrate well into countries which are highly secular(almost hostile to religion) and are welfare states.
Gabryel Karolin
Gammelgädda
Well, something is obviously not working regarding that immigration. But somehow you're not allowed to talk about it.
Sounds like Chinese immigrants wouldn't have problems integrating at all
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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They haven't
So why say "non-European"?
Lillefix
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In Norway it's become more or less a euphemism for Muslims.
aelf
Ashen One
How are you doing your part to help them integrate? By viewing them as suspicious foreigners who have problems integrating?
In my experience, it's a two-way thing. If you begin by thinking that you can't understand them, then you won't make the effort and things won't work out.
I don't think the issue can be found in the fact that they are non-European. As Dachs pointed out, it's to do with more specific cultural issues.
But by all means, continue thinking that it's a European v.s. non-European (i.e. us vs. them) thing if you think that helps.
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
Did you even try to get to know the facts in this case? You're so far off the map you don't even have a clue where you are... then again, there might be a mitigating circumstance for you in the American educational system (geography ey).
Geez... I'm going to have to side with Ecofarm in that the USA are #1. First off, despite general anxiety towards Muslims, we'd never elect an idiot like this to office (hell we even have a muslin president). Secondly, we live in a free country, which is kind of like a European country, but you can say nearly whatever you feel without threats of lawsuits. Indeed USA is number 1.
George Bush. And at least Wilders doesn't hold an executive office. He's just in parliament. And I dare to say that if the American system was not dominated by just two party's, this (type of) guy would have been immensely popular in the states. He would probably get a substantial part of the Republican votes. With a little more conservatism he might even become FOX' number one hero. As for your second argument, I thought that in the US there were a lot of lawsuits because of something called slander?
Are you kidding me? Something like a world economic crisis was necessary to hear about something else than immigration and islam... Anyway, it would be nice to not just complain about it and put fear in the minds of all those that aren't in contact with non-Western immigrant anyway, but start thinking about how to help that part of society that is somewhat segregated, to integrate. As was pointed out above by someone else, integration comes from two sides. We as 'natives' or Western immigrants must be willing to let them integrate to, be helpful, and be patient as long as progress can be seen.
Gabryel Karolin
Gammelgädda
Fine, specific cultural issues. At least you can see that there are problems. One way to prevent these problems would be to limit immigration from those countries. But I guess thats too easy, possibly even rasist to consider.
To a certain kind of people I will always be the enemy for not joining in the chorus of condemnation against those who critize the current immigrationsystem. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're one of them.
I'm not against immigration as such, not within Europe, not from outside Europe. I, however see no reason to continou a policy which is creating more problems than benefits, not even if its the 'nice' thing to do.
I'd love to hear your solutions by the way.
We helped them plenty by allowing them in! Integration comes from two sides... what the hell? I have absolutely no obligation to treat these people any better than I treat my fellow 'natives' as you put it. It is the immigrants who have the absolute obligation to become a useful and beneficial part of the societies they fled to.
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
Immigration from non-Western countries is already very, very limited. At least here in the Netherlands, and I understood that we were one of the last to sharpen the rules drastically (although I hear the Swedes were quite late too). Most of the mulsim immigration nowadays has to do with either war refugees, or with legitimate Swedes or Dutch of non-European descent, that marry someone from their home country. If you like it or not, that is legal. Either they are allowed to, or no Swede may marry a non-Swede. Completely stopping immigration is therefore not only not nice, but legally impossible. And well, limited it already is.
Anyway, I do honestly not see how religion is the determining factor. On the first level it is far more an issue of class. It's not just those Maroccan youngsters that make trouble. There is enough Dutch youth with Dutch parents and grandparents that are just as bad. The common denominator is the same; low education, low perceived prospects. The overrepresentation of non-Western immigrants in this group? Sure, now we get to culture. Not dominating the language well enough (gives trouble in school), effectively living in two cultures at once, having uneducated parents that can't teach that much to their children (our governments fault for preferring to attract the cheaper analphabets in the 1960s), and even discrimination of those that do have the capacities to climb the social ladder (research shows that non-Western immigrant children are far more likely to get a lower advise for high school level).
I agree that there will be a problem as long as we can identify this 'different' group (will take 2-3centuries for them to be completely mixed in in biological terms I guess), but instead of whining about it, bashing everyone that can be vaguely associated to them, we could actually try to have a positive mind set and try to help those that are segregated and excluded.
It is our own damn fault anyway. Our governments wanted uneducated analphabet workers, and they got them! Then they left them alone for fourty years or even giving them the wrong incentives (only teach how to apply for social benefit in citizenship school....greeeeat idea), and now all over sudden see social problems with these people... beh.
Anyway, I do honestly not see how religion is the determining factor. On the first level it is far more an issue of class. It's not just those Maroccan youngsters that make trouble. There is enough Dutch youth with Dutch parents and grandparents that are just as bad. The common denominator is the same; low education, low perceived prospects. The overrepresentation of non-Western immigrants in this group? Sure, now we get to culture. Not dominating the language well enough (gives trouble in school), effectively living in two cultures at once, having uneducated parents that can't teach that much to their children (our governments fault for preferring to attract the cheaper analphabets in the 1960s), and even discrimination of those that do have the capacities to climb the social ladder (research shows that non-Western immigrant children are far more likely to get a lower advise for high school level).
I agree that there will be a problem as long as we can identify this 'different' group (will take 2-3centuries for them to be completely mixed in in biological terms I guess), but instead of whining about it, bashing everyone that can be vaguely associated to them, we could actually try to have a positive mind set and try to help those that are segregated and excluded.
It is our own damn fault anyway. Our governments wanted uneducated analphabet workers, and they got them! Then they left them alone for fourty years or even giving them the wrong incentives (only teach how to apply for social benefit in citizenship school....greeeeat idea), and now all over sudden see social problems with these people... beh.
aelf
Ashen One
I'm not as concerned about immigration systems as I am with the perceptions behind those systems. There isn't very much I can say about immigration systems, since my own country has a very strict and preferential system that isn't concerned about political correctness. That said, with the practical problems associated with immigration in mind, I'm horrified by the attitudes towards immigrants in my country. The xenophobia and irrational hatred that might grace the pages of the Daily Mail is fairly commonplace. But there I think it's precisely the lack of social welfare that drives people into a frenzy of cutthroat competition and fans the flames. Well, it's complicated and different and would be somewhat OT here.
Anyway, I'm personally very open about immigration, since I have been an immigrant, is likely to be an immigrant again and come from an immigrant society (which hates immigrants). But I'm aware that some people do try to abuse the systems. Nevertheless, I'd say that, asylum-seeking aside, it's difficult enough to be a legal immigrant in most countries that people care to immigrate to.
As for people who have immigrated, despite its rather poor showing when it comes to issues about immigration, I think it might be useful to take a page from Singapore's policies on ethnic integration. Immigrants and native people should live in the same places and go to the same schools. And that must be coupled with strong inculcation in the value of pluralism and in the notion of unity in diversity. It might seem like brainwashing to you, but I guess it's a good kind of brainwashing. Do it well and perhaps the notion that it's us vs. them would disappear, at which point the problem melts away.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
My impression is that Wilders is in clear and obvious violation of one or more laws, and that those laws are asses.
See:
See:
http://www.sappho.dk/shrugging-off-spinoza.htm
Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of insult.
@Erik Mesoy: Wow, another article lacking in nuance...
Your impression is incorrect: the 'Openbaar Ministerie' (prosecution) didn't want to try Wilders in the first case, saying it is unlikely the charges will hold up in court ( as your linked article states). However, the people wanting the trial against Wilders have pressed for prosecution via another law suit ('kort geding'), leaving the prosecution no choice but to go ahead.
While Wilders now champions 'freedom of speech' (OP article), he denies that precise freedom to a minority of Dutch citizens (not illegal immigrants!), claiming the central book of Islam is the Mein Kampf of this fascist religion. While such opinions indicate a nutcase at best, they apparently voice the opinions of another minority of citizens.
The problem is, ofcourse, that any religious minority enjoys freedom of religion as well, something which Wilders cum suis seem to ignore.
@Erik Mesoy: Wow, another article lacking in nuance...
Your impression is incorrect: the 'Openbaar Ministerie' (prosecution) didn't want to try Wilders in the first case, saying it is unlikely the charges will hold up in court ( as your linked article states). However, the people wanting the trial against Wilders have pressed for prosecution via another law suit ('kort geding'), leaving the prosecution no choice but to go ahead.
While Wilders now champions 'freedom of speech' (OP article), he denies that precise freedom to a minority of Dutch citizens (not illegal immigrants!), claiming the central book of Islam is the Mein Kampf of this fascist religion. While such opinions indicate a nutcase at best, they apparently voice the opinions of another minority of citizens.
The problem is, ofcourse, that any religious minority enjoys freedom of religion as well, something which Wilders cum suis seem to ignore.
Gabryel Karolin
Gammelgädda
OK, Sweden took 100k last year. Thats with a pop of roughly 10 million. Two of the largest groups were Somalis and Iraqis, who have an employment-rate of less than 50% and are grossly overrepresentated in crime-statictics. War refugees are, as they have always been, a small part of the total immigration. Also I have in no way suggested making it illegal to marry foreigners and frankly its dishonest of you to try to suggest that I am. And really, how many cases a year are because of marriage? Less than a hundred I'd wager, come on.
Its alright not to feel guilty about living in a successful society, really
. And at least here those workers we took in 40 years ago are fine! I know I am, and so are my parents and grandparents! I don't burn cars even if someone slanders Mannerheim or make jokes about Norway.So brainwash people until the problem goes away. Not sure that will work
.
willemvanoranje
Curitibano
There is no way that the prosecutor called Wilders' statements illegal. I think the quote was badly translated, or manipulated by the newspaper (not even that shocking)... probably the prosecutor said that "what’s relevant is whether his observations are illegal."
Yes it is. One of our politicians suggested we nuke Mecca, another proposed a bill to deport all Iranians, Cubans, Sudanese, and Syrians from the US.
Neither of them are being arrested or charged. That is the strength of our democracy that we may burn our own flag freely.
It is a pity that Netherland's democracy is weak and superficial.
Quackers
The Frog
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