the missing trait combos

[Iranon]

If you want to give feedback for serious play, stating level, purpose and possible biases is important.
The last few years I played to win Immortal/Deity and occasionally to test unconventional strategies. Much of what I say may be horribly inappropriate to serious low and mid level play (milking score, earliest finish date) or uninteresting/confusing to new players.

Also, things change by level. I value SPI more highly on Deity than on Immortal because it makes buttering up the AIs easier (not worth the bother and economic sacrifices on lower levels).
IND also changes when you can no longer build wonders at a comfortable pace: Worse for getting wonders, better for failure cash. And so on.

This is not about the size of our respective e-naughtybits, it's about nerding out properly and avoiding bad information. I for one like being proven wrong because it means I'm learning something. Likewise, I never hesitated to correct much better players than myself when warranted.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Why do disagreements seem to turn into name calling. Wouldn't it be better to prove a point instead of getting personal? Please try to ramp down the personal stuff and get back to the main argument. Using facts and examples from the game would be far more appropriate.

 

[jokulmorder]

In the vanilla game Pro doesnt benefit the Great Wall at all. For your mod to try this out, Voila:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=464119

and this whole time i thought you needed a walls in order to build great wall =O

well until recently most of my games were at emperor which is not really high enough imo to really benefit from espionage too much so i never built GW.

 

[plasmacannon]

It doesn't take much to benefit from it.
After you build the Great Wall, your first GP will usually be a Spy.
Settle it for the 12 Spy points/turn. During a time where everyone else has 4sp/t and you have 16sp/t, you will easily gain an edge and be able to see what they are researching. You will see what is defending their cities and what they are building.
This edge is usually enough to do better.
With a 2nd GSpy, you build Scotland Yard for the 100% bonus and then you'll save up enough points quickly to start stealing techs.

The +100% Great General emergence in your borders isn't too bad either.
In my current game, Augustus (IND/IMP) built TGW for a total of +200% GG emergence within his borders.
He seems to the one to maximize it.

 

[Tlalynet]

Of course you build wonders on deity, but is industrious actually necessary to go pyramids + key wonders? No. Lack of industrious doesn't mean no wonders, there are plenty of other Phi\??? combos that offer strong synergy that compare or are flat out better than Phi\Ind. Phi\Fin has a better economy as does Phi\Org. Phi\Cha is better at getting that first GS out, and Phi\Cha is also better at running a strong early specialist economy (grab the 'mids, +1-2 specialists per city)+ it has a military bonus. Heck, there are plenty of Ind\??? that can compete.

It's not a bad combo to be sure, but it's not notably stronger than combo's that already exist in the game.

 

[Mylene]

Of course you build wonders on deity, but is industrious actually necessary to go pyramids + key wonders? No. Lack of industrious doesn't mean no wonders

..but you reduce your chances of losing them, will always be a small disaster
Think GLH, only Ind speeds up here. Can be risky cos if you fail you will have worked less on expansion, saving hammers makes fails shorter and less hurtful too.

Ind+Phi can solve problems without depending too much on land, and often you will get boxed in easily. That's where overpowered would come in imo..all other combos depend more on available land, without rivers Fin is not too great. Not much space...uh Org won't do much.
Or take espionage, building tgw and getting gspies (and also important, other great peoples afterwards) which 2 traits would help most?

 

[TheWilltoAct]

Good points, especially about wonders that don't have a hurrying resource.

Small typo I think "but you reduce your chances of losing them--"

EDIT- nvm, I understand your meaning

 

[plasmacannon]

IND give you a bonus +50% more production towards forges (or Mints with UL), The Great Lighthouse, Wall Street, Iron Works, Forbidden Palace, The A.P., Globe Theatre, Red Cross, National Park, Broadway, Hollywood, Rock n Roll, Three Gorges Dam, The Pentagon, The U.N., Cristo Redentor, and your Palace should you choose to move it.
All of these buildings have No resourse to gain a production advantage.
So, Only IND leaders gain a prod bonus to permit them in building them in a timely manner.
Forges also can get you another 3 happiness from Gold, Silver and Gems as you conquer cities.
Any building built after the Forge is built 25% faster. Which means faster built Courthouses, Libraries, Universities, Banks, etc.

I don't see IND as a weak useless trait.
Stalin, Augustus, DeGaulle and Ramesses usually do quite well in games I am in.
It depends on the other trait and if it synergizes with the empire's UU, or if the UU is just great on it's own (Roman and Egypt).

 

[Tlalynet]

It's an overpowered combo because it works very well in a certain set of circumstances with certain playstyles?

It's not a weak combo, no one said it was a weak combo, they said it's not substantially more powerful than combos that already exist. It's not anything superamazing.

If you lack land FIN is good since you probably have a lot of water that you have to work at one point on another... Org does require a larger civ to shine, but it does shine in that case, and even on deity you shouldn't be perma boxed in every game.

Org is generally nicer for espianage, as getting a GSpy going in every city > +2 GPP in one city. Plus if you're going EE you won't want IND as the GPP pollution will be terrible to overcome. Phi\Pro is nice in an EE too, as cheap castles make a big difference and you're probably going to piss someone off by stealing techs eventually. Then you can exploit the AI with hillforts ect... There are quite a few trait combo's nicer than Phi\Ind for an EE.

It's not that the trait combo is bad, it's not head and shoulders better than other strong trait combos. It's not an IWIN button nor a no brainier over other options. Phi is nice, Ind is nice, they have some synergy (though that synergy is more limited than people think, as it does not add up to more than one extra GP) That's it.

Plasma,
No one said IND was a useless or even weak trait, what are you talking about there? Ind is a fine trait on its own, as is PHI. They're two good traits and so they're a good combo. It's just they don't have the super hyper op synergy some people seem to think they do. They compliment each other, but they're nothing game-breaking or better than other strong combos.

 

[jokulmorder]

IND give you a bonus +50% more production towards forges (or Mints with UL), The Great Lighthouse, Wall Street, Iron Works, Forbidden Palace, The A.P., Globe Theatre, Red Cross, National Park, Broadway, Hollywood, Rock n Roll, Three Gorges Dam, The Pentagon, The U.N., Cristo Redentor, and your Palace should you choose to move it.
All of these buildings have No resourse to gain a production advantage.
So, Only IND leaders gain a prod bonus to permit them in building them in a timely manner.
Forges also can get you another 3 happiness from Gold, Silver and Gems as you conquer cities.
Any building built after the Forge is built 25% faster. Which means faster built Courthouses, Libraries, Universities, Banks, etc.

I don't see IND as a weak useless trait.
Stalin, Augustus, DeGaulle and Ramesses usually do quite well in games I am in.
It depends on the other trait and if it synergizes with the empire's UU, or if the UU is just great on it's own (Roman and Egypt).

stalin? i've never seen him do well =O

 

[Mylene]

Guys..wonders give GP points, and the most powerful wonder Pyras (besides GLH on some maps) supports specialists. They alone can win you games cos early Rep. and later Police State are game breaking. You get loads of research and bulbing and happy, without working much.
You could even get lucky with GE points and rush GLH with no risk, been there done that.
You can whip out for example Curis/Cavs in every crappy city with PS, and that's all you need for winning most maps on this lovely evil diff. level.

They realized that, no other trait combo would work together so automatically and well.
Ind isn't just wonders, it's also fail gold and faster nat. wonders and forges.
PHI not only great peoples but also Unis for Ox, best building by far for late peaceful games.
And how you reach Ox quick? Via bulbing...what gives GP points faster aka when they matter most?

Did they notice Quechis are too good, or WCs? Nopes, but 2 wrongs would not make another right ~~

 

[plasmacannon]

...
Plasma,
No one said IND was a useless or even weak trait, what are you talking about there? Ind is a fine trait on its own, as is PHI. They're two good traits and so they're a good combo. It's just they don't have the super hyper op synergy some people seem to think they do. They compliment each other, but they're nothing game-breaking or better than other strong combos.

Not in those exact words, but the general consences appears to be that PHI when linked with IND isn't all that to write home about.

Calling IND/PHI overpowered has been a long-standing joke assertion. There's no evidence for it and I expect there never will be.

I wouldn't consider it a joke. Some of the current IND leaders would do better with PHI instead of their other trait.
I agree IND/PHI isn't perfect, nor game breaking. I just wanted to put in a few good words towards the IND usage. Most people seemed to empahsize that resouces will do just fine for the non-IND empires, yet there are several wonders & 1 building that no resource will help us build it faster. I will try to build the Great LightHouse every game and Forges in virtually every city. The same for Ironworks and Forbidden Palace.
I've had games where I have been pumping out units from so many cities, that I didn't have the time to build Wall Street. If I was IND, I would have likely built it.
In my current game I played Alexander [AGG/PHI] in the K-mod. I planned to axe rush, but was surprised at the defenses. I chose to build up more before attacking. Since, I don't build Forges or Courthouses faster, it took me longer to get to the next period of combat.
IND could have really helped me at that point. It would have given me a chance at marble wonders, which it seems I rarely have marble around.
Again, not game breaking. Just more useful than the sense I was getting so far.

stalin? i've never seen him do well =O

Stalin does well in my hands
I can axe rush, if I have Copper near me. If I don't, I might go wonder building. He has options, instead of being 1 dimensional.

 

[bhavv]

Guys..wonders give GP points, and the most powerful wonder Pyras (besides GLH on some maps) supports specialists. They alone can win you games cos early Rep. and later Police State are game breaking. You get loads of research and bulbing and happy, without working much.
You could even get lucky with GE points and rush GLH with no risk, been there done that.
You can whip out for example Curis/Cavs in every crappy city with PS, and that's all you need for winning most maps on this lovely evil diff. level.

So in summary IND + PHI isnt overpowered, just the Pyramids are.

Its no different to any PHI leader starting right next to some stone.

I wouldn't consider it a joke. Some of the current IND leaders would do better with PHI instead of their other trait.

OFC they would do better, but calling it overpowered is a joke. Play any PHI civ, reroll map until you get stone, whats the difference?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ind + Phi would be *very* overpowered on Deity, combinations of Pyras + fast engineers and scientists + marble wonders + academy(ies) + fast bulbs + fast Unis and Ox possible = crazy stuffs.
No no TmiT your beloved Fireaxis devs got this one right

Easy to say. Not so easy to prove. Give such a civ crummy UU/UB and you won't even beat out combinations that already exist...let alone demonstrate significant imbalance beyond what the game has already. Sorry, but you're definitely wrong on this one.

Plasmacannon suggested we imagine rome or egypt with these traits . "here, this good trait combo will seem OP if you give it a REALLY good UU". Okay. Now put it on USA or Germany and see how many hall of fame records get broken with it. Good luck.

I wouldn't consider it a joke. Some of the current IND leaders would do better with PHI instead of their other trait.

You can literally say this about every single trait in the game (except PHI, which would give PHI/PHI and I'm not sure how that would work :/).

Did they notice Quechis are too good, or WCs? Nopes, but 2 wrongs would not make another right ~~

There is no evidence that IND/PHI provides a material advantage over other trait combos on a majority of speeds and difficulties. You can tell us how to use the traits until blue in the face, but it doesn't change the reality one bit. PHI + something else with stone will secure your precious mids faster than PHI/IND without it. Same goes for marble + those wonders. What's the total investment for building all of them with 1 resource but no IND vs no resources + IND? I'd be interested to see just how different it looks...but I'd also point out that some of the best deity players have skipped pyramids outright in a lot of situations.

Quechas are only "too good" because the AI is terrible at this game. Try using them in MP and see how well you do when the other side just builds a few warriors and blocks you from defensive terrain. How is that relevant to PHI/IND? Well, try building mids, TGL, GLH, oracle, and so forth all together in multiplayer and watch what happens if someone notices. Someone with aggressive for example, who just sends a few axe/spears in and either pillages your flatlands to hell or neuters your expansion forever. It's pretty hard to enjoy those great wonders when you're working unimproved tiles.

In single player, without a top flight UU I don't see this trait combo being competitive in most HoF settings either...which means that you're basically calling it overpowered because it would be slightly easier for you to do one of your favorite strategies to win on ONE difficulty. That's...a very unimpressive argument in terms of demonstrating the trait is actually OP.

Its very simple to mod any leader in the game to IND / PHI to test whether or not it would be so overpowered. Anyone can do this, but I assume that the only people that would be interested in doing this would have no interest in playing leaders with modified traits.

Actually, I was hinting that attempts to demonstrate the trait combo is materially better than options that already exist would fail. I just don't see it beating immortal rushing with darius on marathon for example, or FIN/SPI/PHI (some combo) for culture games. Below emp you can just kill everything with horse archers even on normal speed so its "OP" is in question there too. Even on the highest difficulties with some starts it will occasionally lose to something wonky like Augustus IND/IMP where he just goes GLH and gets 10+ coastal cities (it can happen sometimes).

OFC they would do better, but calling it overpowered is a joke. Play any PHI civ, reroll map until you get stone, whats the difference?

Not much in terms of a mids-based strategy...you get faster GPP from PHI but lose out on other early game options.

Would IND/PHI be better than ORG/PRO? Well, yes most likely. Would it be materially stronger than any top tier trait combo in the game, especially with UU/UB factored? Hell no.

I'm frankly surprised and disappointed that players, both low and high level alike, seem to want to tag something as overpowered without a shred of evidence. That's not the kind of frame of mind that lets one become a strong player in the first place.

If you think I'm wrong, prove it. Someone can do a lock modified assets game and shatter some HoF records if it's really so good.

 

[Mylene]

I would be more than happy to play an Ind/Phi game and show, but how? ~~
If someone can set that up...go ahead
Until then i fear we are just having fun discussing.
TmiT i cannot show evidence, but i think i do have the experience for knowing how this would play out on many maps.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I can cite experience too, but that's not very useful. We'd need to see the trait used over and over again and see how its victory % compares to other trait combinations...quite difficult.

But your argument for it being OP is murky at best. You basically just listed what you can do with the trait. There are no turn dates, no analysis of what alternative traits (to either PHI or IND) could have accomplished instead, and not even an example of actual usage of the trait...and all of that argument is limited to a single speed/difficulty combo by your own admission.

You'll struggle VERY hard to even pretend this combo can be OP at lower difficulties. The real question is "just how many turns faster (or slower) does IND/PHI put you in position to win on each speed/difficulty". You believe (without evidence) that it will save a few turns on deity/normal. Great. Can you possibly claim it will do that on monarch/anything? Deity/marathon? Immortal/epic? Multiplayer? Not really. IND/PHI doesn't help with producing early horse archers, immortals, or breaking chokes. Even on deity/normal you will find situations where you'd rather have something else, especially when survival is at stake or you're boxed in a situation where you HAVE to rush or you get 3 cities or less (good luck police state whipping cavalry on 3 cities).

 

[Tlalynet]

So in summary IND + PHI isnt overpowered, just the Pyramids are.

This seems to be Mylene's whole argument... I'm not about to argue the pyramids are balanced

Plasmacannon,

I can easily agree to all of that.

 

[Mylene]

It's not my whole argument, just the most outstanding
Wonders and GP are often connected, that's my main point.
And both are powerful tools when being faster than AIs matters, you won't win a deity game with settling all arouind Shaka, supported by traits like Cre, Org etc.but you will win if you settle 1 hill city closest to him and let Ind+PHI get you to Curis by 300AD.

 

[plasmacannon]

Plasmacannon suggested we imagine rome or egypt with these traits . "here, this good trait combo will seem OP if you give it a REALLY good UU". Okay. Now put it on USA or Germany and see how many hall of fame records get broken with it. Good luck.

Would IND/PHI be better than ORG/PRO? Well, yes most likely.

So, the trait combo would be OP in the hands of the right empire? Ok. We agree.

There is no evidence that IND/PHI provides a material advantage over other trait combos on a majority of speeds and difficulties. You can tell us how to use the traits until blue in the face, but it doesn't change the reality one bit. PHI + something else with stone will secure your precious mids faster than PHI/IND without it. Same goes for marble + those wonders.

Why do you ONLY compare [IND/PHI] to other traits who have stone or marble? As if, the [IND/PHI] leader can't get those resourses randomly or through conquering too? Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.
If Brennus [SPI/CHA] and this [IND/PHI] leader BOTH start with stone and marble, is one OP than the other? The answer is Yes.

In a game I am playing, I have a PHI leader of India using unrestricted leaders. India's Fast workers allow me to move into forest tiles and chop them more quickly than anyone else. I started with stone in my BFC. India seems to have stone or marble in most of my games btw. If I was IND too, I would be able to build mids and other stone wonders faster than anyone else in the game. I would benefit from my PHI trait on those wonders faster than anyone else in the game. Especially, when we take into account that India starts with Mining and Mysticism and can start research BW on turn 0, while building Fast worker->Stonehenge.

Such a leader would likely do very well in one city challanges. Especially, when compared to other leaders. Sitting Bull for example.

But your argument for it being OP is murky at best. You basically just listed what you can do with the trait. There are no turn dates, no analysis of what alternative traits (to either PHI or IND) could have accomplished instead, and not even an example of actual usage of the trait...and all of that argument is limited to a single speed/difficulty combo by your own admission.

Of course, there isn't "an example of actual usage of the trait", because the game designers didn't put in into the game.

IND/PHI doesn't help with producing early horse archers, immortals, or breaking chokes. Even on deity/normal you will find situations where you'd rather have something else, especially when survival is at stake or you're boxed in a situation where you HAVE to rush or you get 3 cities or less (good luck police state whipping cavalry on 3 cities).

So, you haven't rushed an opponent with regular chariots and won?
So, if a choke point is a single forest tile and I block it with regular axemen, I will fail horendously, since I am not AGG?
Usually, when I get to the situation where I have only 3 cities and am rush buying to stay in the game, I made an error somewhere else and it's over. I've made that mistake with non-IND leaders plenty of times. All it takes is for me to finish completing a wonder and get a DOW from my two closest AIs before I can produce units.

I can easily see an example of an IND/PHI leader on a continent with 1 AI starting with horse in his BFC and Stone and Marble somewhere on the continent, chariot rushing the AI, defeating him, then building wonders for the rest of the game to a Space or other victory. The AI doesn't do too many massive naval invasions, so the game is pretty much won at that point.

Wonders and GP are often connected, that's my main point.

Exactly!
With enough GS one can tech past many. With enough GMs, I'll have have more gold than a FIN leader. More GEs means more wonders. PHI gives a lot of options. [IND/PHI] would just be sick, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

 

[bhavv]

With enough GS one can tech past many. With enough GMs, I'll have have more gold than a FIN leader. More GEs means more wonders. PHI gives a lot of options. [IND/PHI] would just be sick, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

Just no.

Wonders which generate GS points - Glib - 2, Uni of Sankore - 2, Oxford - 1.

If you get all three in the same city, that +5 GS points. With Philosophic you would get an additional +5 GS points, which is just a bit less than 2 Scientists.

Wonders which generate GM points early on - GLH, Temple of Artemis, Collosus, all three generate 6 GM points.

With PHI that would be an extra 6 GM, equivalent to 2 merchants.

Over the course of a whole game, your looking at just two - three extra great people. On Immortal / Deity, your simply never going to get all those wonders built in the same city, sure you can pull off one or two, but you have to choose - either the GLH or Pyramids, Collosus is always too risky, Temple of Artemis, just why would you waste production on this on Immortal+? Glib is good to have, but again PHI will only give an extra 2 GS points from it.

Wonders barely contribute towards GP generation like specialists do, and any gains from Philosophical are minute. I've done GLH + Temple of Artemis + Collosus + Statue of Lib in the same city with Elizabeth for GM farming lots of time on <Emperor, sure its nice to do but you can do the same and much better with a 6 seafood start and caste system running loads of Merchants with any PHI leader. Wonders contribute an insignificant amount towards great people over the whole course of a game, the point of building wonders is for the wonder's bonuses, not for the points they generate otherwise feel free to knock yourself out by building Pyramids + Hanging Gardens + Hagia Sophia for GE farming, and tell me that you win the game quicker than Darius of HRE (which you absolutely will not - at least not a space race).

I would be more than happy to play an Ind/Phi game and show, but how? ~~
If someone can set that up...go ahead

XML edit any civ you like to IND / PHI and save it in a new mod folder (Dont save changes to the original). No one would be able to make you a save game for this because you wont be able to load it without their mod installed (unless they create and upload mod just for this purpose). If I learned how to XML edit Civ IV, anyone can.