In a game I am playing, I have a PHI leader of India using unrestricted leaders. India's Fast workers allow me to move into forest tiles and chop them more quickly than anyone else. I started with stone in my BFC. India seems to have stone or marble in most of my games btw. If I was IND too, I would be able to build mids and other stone wonders faster than anyone else in the game. I would benefit from my PHI trait on those wonders faster than anyone else in the game. Especially, when we take into account that India starts with Mining and Mysticism and can start research BW on turn 0, while building Fast worker->Stonehenge.
Less trash arguments, more numerical comparisons of getting your wonders or gpp a bit faster as opposed to other trait benefits. At least TRY to build a case rather than repeating irrelevancies. Anyone can list the benefits of traits. If you want to say that PHI/IND would be better than other traits in OCC, I'll agree, since the total benefit from most traits gets neutered in that setting. But OCC is both non-standard and a challenge format unto itself, so who cares?
Of course, there isn't "an example of actual usage of the trait", because the game designers didn't put in into the game.
XML edits can drop it into the game easily, if anyone actually wanted to put their foot in their mouth trying to show how much better this trait combo supposedly is (but even then only on 1 difficulty and probably only on faster speeds on said difficulty).
So, you haven't rushed an opponent with regular chariots and won?
So, you haven't built pyramids and farmed gpp without phi/ind and won?
So, if a choke point is a single forest tile and I block it with regular axemen, I will fail horendously, since I am not AGG?
So, if I have stone or marble and I hook it up, I will fail horrendously at getting the wonder?
I hope you see what I did with these little statements. Move along now.
I can easily see an example of an IND/PHI leader on a continent with 1 AI starting with horse in his BFC and Stone and Marble somewhere on the continent, chariot rushing the AI, defeating him, then building wonders for the rest of the game to a Space or other victory. The AI doesn't do too many massive naval invasions, so the game is pretty much won at that point.
Please, STOP with the inane, theoretical examples that would allow literally any trait combo or 0 traits to also succeed in the same situation. At least TRY to make an actual case. I don't like winning arguments because the other side stops trying, but that's what's happening here.
Still 0 evidence. If you want to refute my points from earlier posts, you have to actually address them. Can you refute them, or do you intend to simply repeat arguments over and over without addressing them?
Let's try this again:
The real question is "just how many turns faster (or slower) does IND/PHI put you in position to win on each speed/difficulty".
Show me numbers.
Can you possibly claim it will do that on monarch/anything? Deity/marathon? Immortal/epic? Multiplayer? Not really.
Note that with 100's and 100's of words posted, you still haven't and probably can't. Why can't you? Why can't you tell me how broken phi/ind is on monarch? Why can't you quantify how large an advantage it is in multiplayer? I ask for these things, and the burden of proof is on the "this is OP!!!!!!!" crowd to pony up and show us why it's OP. Instead, every proponent of that joke argument on this thread has shied away from giving numbers
that compare the faster GPP to say, expansive
saved or faster libraries with creative, or to literally anything else. The arguments don't even give demonstrations, instead simply hiding behind a list of what the two traits can potentially do when combined. You can do that junk with any trait combo and make it seem "op" by using that.
Try an actual argument.
No need for taking our word on this, @Obsolete showed his "wonder economy" stuffs here over years.
And you could hear him saying "i need my Ind or Phi guys".
He got put into a special category of players, while in reality he only used all thingies that make you strong early. It's not surprising that peoples now won't understand why this trait combo would be devastating, if you thought what Obs did was super special. It was not, for me.
I also remember players like ABigCivFan, Rusten, U_Sun, and others completely trouncing his position (and win date) on equal maps, even when he had one of those traits. Can the strategy win? Sure. I pulled off a chariot rush in that deity HRE game, does that mean it's obviously overpowered to rush with chariots? Would you make that case when comparing my position to people who chose better options? I bet not, and yet that's precisely what you're doing with obsolete's games.
By the way, in BOTM 10 Unconquered_Sun had tanks and bombers at 1300 AD or so on deity (ready to attack, too, which means he had the techs even sooner). Clearly then IMP/PRO is overpowered right? I mean, just look at what a player managed to do on deity with it! So strong. Firaxis never should have put IMP/PRO into the game because it's obviously broken!
Sigh.
A lot depends on the map.
Not a very strong case for PHI/IND being overpowered, but a fairly good one for the trait fitting into current combos.
Most of us understand the value of GPP. What we're looking for is not that, but numerical comparisons of the direct timing + benefit of PHI/IND combo against other trait combinations. Other traits get GPP too. PHI/IND can go to war or expand too. But, on average, which one gives the greatest benefit? What if you factor UU/UB and the PHI/IND has crap in those categories? All of this "OP" nonsense and not even an attempt, not the smallest effort to look at whether the combo's earlier GPP + ability to build some wonders compares abnormally favourably to a couple 100 extra

early, the ability to rush + kill someone more often, or to someone like gandhi who can economize hammers via fast worker and carries one of the traits (or to liz, who can break a lot of maps with GLH, Colossus, drafted redcoats, or just a straight cottage approach still getting the fast GPP).
Well, feel free to prove me wrong. Let's see those record-shattering games with a modded PHI/IND leader of a weak civ like america, japan, or germany. Good luck.