the missing trait combos

[TheMeInTeam]

None of the trait combinations I consider strong is particularly suited to early warfare, so I wouldn't hold that against IND/PHI. If anything, survival considerations point towards the importance of Uniques - Skirmishers will help more than any traits.

Ah, but if that's true it demonstrates more the possibility that IND/PHI fits in as opposed to being too strong.

Given how many trick paths PHI enables when you get a good start, with a discount to Oracle and forges (often Oracled)... possibly. You admittedly don't get the easy sustainability.

Possibly I can accept. I admit the trait combo is very good, I just have serious doubts that it would be materially stronger than other traits consistently.

I don't think IND requries as many concessions in expansion to work well as is commonly believed.

I don't either and consider it underrated in the general sense, but you're looking at a strict set of conditions get oracle ---> GE mids, and hoping AI doesn't beat you to it. Even without that IND can be solid, but I'm not seeing the *overwhelming* strength, I'm just seeing a solid trait combo.

I am not comfortable editing those files yet. I play multiplayer games and need my install to match another and I am not interested in swapping files out or creating a 2nd install simply for this example, of which the answer seemed fairly obvious.

If you don't want to do it that's fine, however you really can't ignore the fact that it doesn't "seem" so obvious after all.

ok. This argument is completely off.

Of course it is. That's because I was copying your argument style and giving a comparably effective example when making that line.

Again, apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

Again, I'm just making another comically irrelevant example that holds equal weight to the one I quoted.

I hope, you will correctly compare apples to apples.

Yes, I'm hoping the other side does this in this argument at some point. Well, Iranon did so but then he's not truly in the "it's OP" camp, but rather in the "obviously it's good" camp which is something else.

In this example, any empire with any leader can chariot rush the AI and capture it's city. Any empire can hook up it's marble and stone and build wonders. The IND leader will do the 1st at the same rate as any other empire, and the 2nd at a faster rate, all other things being equal.

The problem with "examples" like this, is that you don't make an argument. You claim the IND/PHI leader gets the wonders earlier...well that's great. Other civs get courthouses sooner, save 100's of or sooner, or allow more cities captured/expansion without slowing tech too much, during/just after the rush...any of which could end up contributing more than IND/PHI. Actually, IND/PHI is most effective with smaller empires. A successful rush in semi-iso is generally a win regardless, so I'm not sure why you'd even consider it.

I am not suggesting that IND/PHI is the best trait combo ever for all circumstances.
One can win via Immortal rushes, with Praetorians or War Chariots. William V Oranje, Liz and many others do well too. All I am suggesting is that an IND/PHI would be a top tier leader for the area where it is specialized in, which is building wonders and getting GP from those wonders.

Being top tier =/= overpowering. I'm arguing against the trait being overpowered, not against the fact that it would be among the better combos in the game (it would indeed be top tier on deity and solid on immortal...though less useful on lower difficulties). There's a big difference between those two things.

So, the IND/PHI leader has to be on a worse footing like "america, japan, or germany" and not on the same starting point as Gandhi or Liz? It can't be IND/PHI of India or IND/PHI of England? apples to apples my friend, not apples to oranges.

The reason I'm giving it to those civs is because everyone wants to demonstrate the trait combo is "overpowered" to the point that it shouldn't be included in the game. However, if you acknowledge that having crummy uniques would put it on the level of other traits, you acknowledge the overpowered argument is in fact BOGUS. When you combine good traits with amazing UU instead, you get things like Inca. Inca is banned in HoF challenger and gauntlets...there aren't many UU/UB combos you could give PHI/IND that would have more strength than that.

Again, I don't think anyone is saying that IND/PHI is the greatest trait combo and would trump all others in any circumstance.

No, but multiple people are claiming it shouldn't be in the game because it is too strong, especially in past threads but that implication is in this thread too.

You don't really need XML edits of your own, I'm pretty sure mods have been made that add the traits in.

I don't deny it's an excellent trait combo. However, I strongly stand by the claim that it's "overpowered" to be a joke claim, especially because when we try for #'s:

For building wonders; a non-stone/non-marble empire (or 0 bonus) < IND empire (or 50% bonus)< stone&marble (100% bonus) empire < IND empire with stone&marble (150% bonus)
and for generating GP non-PHI < PHI

There still isn't any comparison to what alternative trait combos could do in the same situation.

 

[plasmacannon]

The reason I'm giving it to those civs is because everyone wants to demonstrate the trait combo is "overpowered" to the point that it shouldn't be included in the game. However, if you acknowledge that having crummy uniques would put it on the level of other traits, you acknowledge the overpowered argument is in fact BOGUS. When you combine good traits with amazing UU instead, you get things like Inca. Inca is banned in HoF challenger and gauntlets...there aren't many UU/UB combos you could give PHI/IND that would have more strength than that.

I acknowledge that IND/PHI is a powerful trait combination. What I haven't heard is a certain empire that it would be best fitted with. The suggestion of "america, japan, or germany", I see as more of a example to make it be played less, as opposed to an empire where it might make sense to be placed.
If placed with an empire that has a powerful UU and or UB, then it too would be grouped in with some of the more powerful combinations.
Civ3 has a similar trait combo IND/SCI for Greece. This was removed, because it was too powerful, yet Greece seems like the right place for such a combo, because it doesn't already have an IND leader in Civ4 and PHI is in both of it's current leaders. I suppose one could be created for Maya. They have only one leader and did build the Chichen Itza. Of course, one could argue, that in Civ4 terms, that no one else wanted to build it. LOL. So, Pacal's fail gold turned into a wonder.

The OP mentioned all 3 trait combos. Aside from me back in post #5, I haven't heard many suggestions for leaders and empires for these 3 traits.
So, everyone, who would it be?

 

[babar]

I get the impression people are arguing about PHI/IND without having tested it at all. Very strange.

After years of assuming it would be awesome, I was generally very underwhelmed. Although like TMIT says, it is probably a top tier combo. It is very good in a situation where wonder spamming is strong (ie when you have a great capital, stone and marble, and enough land sealed off), but really nothing special otherwise.

I'm not a particularly creative player with bulbs and unusual tech paths, so others might find strong gambits here and there, but even that wouldn't be a great argument for it being overpowered IMHO. If the plan is Obsolete-style IND wonder spam, the positive feedback/snowball effect of adding PHI isn't as powerful as might be imagined. Having an extra settled GE early on is nice and all, but not game-breaking. Anyway, the impressive thing about Obsolete's strategy was that it worked at all on Deity, not that it was super strong compared to more conventional options.

The 2 key points for me:

Wonders generally aren't even very good. Also, many of the better ones come early, and PHI won't usually help you to build more of them on Immortal+.

GPs are better generated by specialists. It is usually not efficient to build 3 wonders of questionable value in order to get the same amount of (less predictable) GP points as running two specialists.

 

[vranasm]

I know there is for sure some mod that makes this new civs possible, so if someone can point me to it (and the mod itself has not to touch anything else then just giving new trait combinations) I will try to look at some WWE/SSE. Since Ind/Phi is basically WWE/SSE leader

 

[babar]

@vranasm. I'm sure there is a mod, but all you need to do is change one word in the XML (I picked Roosevelt - changed ORGANIZED to PHILOSOPHICAL). I have a mac, so not sure if it's different for PC, but it was under leaderheadinfos.xml. I have to hold down shift while the game's starting for the first time. It's very easy to change, and then change back. I would very much like to see good players give it a go on these forums

 

[Antilogic]

I get the impression people are arguing about PHI/IND without having tested it at all. Very strange.

After years of assuming it would be awesome, I was generally very underwhelmed. Although like TMIT says, it is probably a top tier combo. It is very good in a situation where wonder spamming is strong (ie when you have a great capital, stone and marble, and enough land sealed off), but really nothing special otherwise.

I have tested it, was underwhelmed, and then got too busy to do a quote war. I agree with your assessment--it's good, but it's not that good.

@vranasm. I'm sure there is a mod, but all you need to do is change one word in the XML (I picked Roosevelt - changed ORGANIZED to PHILOSOPHICAL). I have a mac, so not sure if it's different for PC, but it was under leaderheadinfos.xml. I have to hold down shift while the game's starting for the first time. It's very easy to change, and then change back. I would very much like to see good players give it a go on these forums

Same file for PCs, but copy it into the appropriate location in CustomAssets instead of modifying a core game file. That way, you won't have to re-install if you mess up, you can just delete and try again.