r_rolo1
King of myself
Sorry, had a very hectic day 
will try to start today ( is still friday in most of the world , including Denmark 
)
will try to start today ( is still friday in most of the world , including Denmark )
The Monarchists' Cookbook Bullpen
- Thread starter Diamondeye
- Start date
Negator_UK
King
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 758
Nah, I like pro too, cos its suits my style of quivering in the corner of the map like a jellyfish hoping the AI don't attack me...
Bleys
Deity
I dont mind PRO at all, its not the greatest tech, but it doesnt suck, and can be leveraged pretty easily. Especially since I like to race to Rifling and draft the game-winning army in most games. PRO drafted Rifles are pretty solid.
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, I'll run a planet generator map with Mao ( aka CHINESE_LEADER in the XML and in WB saves 
) Will post this is a hour or so
) Will post this is a hour or so
r_rolo1
King of myself
Ok, MC IV is running
Jerrymander
Epistemologist
Ok, I'll run a planet generator map with Mao ( aka CHINESE_LEADER in the XML and in WB saves
God, the whole XML Mao thing cracks me up.
I think the current game has thrown up a potential problem with the new voting system. Put simply, if there are too many saves offered by players way above Monarch level then the system is unlikely to provide the increased difficulty that it's supposed to.
It may just be a one-off. And previous games have seen a high drop-out rate after the first round, so it may not be an issue as this game goes on. But I reckon we should think about some way of preventing a clean sweep of votes for strong saves in future rounds/games.
I'm definitely not saying that higher level players should be discouraged from playing and posting (esp. as I'm one of them, albeit nowhere near as talented as some of the other contributors). But if the MC continues to gain popularity, then the likelihood of easy games gets much higher under an 'all-comers' system, even with the 'least votes' rule.
It may just be a one-off. And previous games have seen a high drop-out rate after the first round, so it may not be an issue as this game goes on. But I reckon we should think about some way of preventing a clean sweep of votes for strong saves in future rounds/games.
I'm definitely not saying that higher level players should be discouraged from playing and posting (esp. as I'm one of them, albeit nowhere near as talented as some of the other contributors). But if the MC continues to gain popularity, then the likelihood of easy games gets much higher under an 'all-comers' system, even with the 'least votes' rule.
Indeed. But if you look carefully at the last two games, I suggested that certain saves were too strong, and would have a detrimental effect on the rest of the game (which, imo, is exactly what happened).
Then, after the last game, there was a discussion about how we could change things to keep the challenge going longer. This resulted in the new voting system, whereby the save with the least votes/points is picked.
However, while this should work fine as long as there are only a handful of Emperor+ players in the game, it won't do much to stop things getting too easy if there's a whole load of such players submitting saves for the vote.
Let me put it this way: ideally, the save we play from should come from someone who plays Monarch for a challenging game, not for a break from such games. If we can find a system that gives us that, we might see an MC game last beyond Liberalism.
vale
Mathematician
Why was the trash format rejected?
I thought that would have been a good way to keep interest and challenge in the game. With the goal of the series being instructional, the sting of being singled out in a trash round would be mitigated by the potential for a focused discussion on two things that are common questions in this forum:
1. What went wrong?
2. How can I fix/win from this situation?
The presence of detailed reports would make this discussion more productive than the typical thread started in such a situation.
I thought that would have been a good way to keep interest and challenge in the game. With the goal of the series being instructional, the sting of being singled out in a trash round would be mitigated by the potential for a focused discussion on two things that are common questions in this forum:
1. What went wrong?
2. How can I fix/win from this situation?
The presence of detailed reports would make this discussion more productive than the typical thread started in such a situation.
Bleys
Deity
It wasnt, it was modified so that we are playing from a "middle" save, not the best, but not the very very worst either. I think it has worked very well for the first round of MC 4. We had something like 10-12 saves, rolo took votes, and as the process was defined, the 6th or 7th was the "winner".
Ok, I'll run a planet generator map with Mao ( aka CHINESE_LEADER in the XML and in WB saves
What option is the "planet generator" map script? Is it a default script with BTS? I do not see it in my options.
Thanks
r_rolo1
King of myself
Well, i think we need a good discussion ( and some action after ) regarding the format
I don't need to say the problems that we encoutered and are still getting with all the possible formats tried so far. All resumes to 3 things:
-Players with emperor + skills providing easy saves
-The very nature of the format, that tends to push up the saves, by getting the best bits of the players games
-The impopularity of using less than the best save.
So , where are we going from here?
- We close the Monarchist to Monarch- players exclusive use. Possibly we make a Immortal version.
-We get a more draconian system and make the series go unpopular.
So?
I don't need to say the problems that we encoutered and are still getting with all the possible formats tried so far. All resumes to 3 things:
-Players with emperor + skills providing easy saves
-The very nature of the format, that tends to push up the saves, by getting the best bits of the players games
-The impopularity of using less than the best save.
So , where are we going from here?
- We close the Monarchist to Monarch- players exclusive use. Possibly we make a Immortal version.
-We get a more draconian system and make the series go unpopular.
So?
schwartz
King
I'd definitely play in an Immortal version if you guys decide on that 
Bleys
Deity
I think we go Emperor in this series, and we also support the guys who want to do an Immortal one. I am finding my way on Emp, and have even gotten a couple Immortal wins with powerhouse leaders (Willy and Hannibal on my fav M&S maps, GLH is even more goddly on Emp and Immortal than it is on Monarch). Still struggling with "mediocre" leaders on Emp, but thats mostly because I give up too soon to avoid a big grind-fest.
Diamondeye
So Happy I Could Die
I for one still struggle on Emp. I am not at all comfortable with it. I dunno what you guys want to do? I believe Tycoonist wanted a Emp or Imm cookbook going - how about we keep MC rolling and link EC or IC from this thread, whoever starts it?
I think there are a few issues with making the Monarchist Cookbook games 'Monarch player exclusive'. I play the games in order to get the tips of 'experienced' players and to see how they play the same round that I just played. If all of these players were to leave to higher level games then I don't feel that I would learn as much.
At the same time, these more experienced players saves should not be considered to continue the game. But, then the question is 'how do we define whose saves are to not be included'? I don't think the idea of going with the trash save is good, because while that may be a challenge for those more experienced players, for the Monarch level players (like myself) it may be too tough to come back from. So, the idea of picking a 'middle of the road' save is a good one.
I feel that there should be two small changes to the way things are currently done...
1. Allow players to remove their own saves from the runnings. This would allow experienced players to give an example of how things should be done, but their saves won't be considered for continuing the game.
2. Vote on which saves (of those who are self-confessed Monarch players) are best. The top half of saves (however many this might be--if there are 6 saves, then top 3, of 4 then top 2) get props for playing 'above average'. This would put a more positive spin on things, so that monarch players can feel like they did really well, rather than feeling like they did poorly when their save is compared to those of more experienced players. The save that is at the top of the 'average' saves will be the one that is used.
As I see it, one big problem with the 'trash pick' type games is that it isn't as fun to be picked as first. By still congratulating (and maybe pointing out what they did right) those players who are first among Monarch level players, we keep that competition alive... but at the same time, we don't use the save of whoever came in first in order to keep the challenge alive...
The more experienced players also deserve to play a challenging game, so the idea of an Immortal/Emperor level game is totally a good idea.
At the same time, these more experienced players saves should not be considered to continue the game. But, then the question is 'how do we define whose saves are to not be included'? I don't think the idea of going with the trash save is good, because while that may be a challenge for those more experienced players, for the Monarch level players (like myself) it may be too tough to come back from. So, the idea of picking a 'middle of the road' save is a good one.
I feel that there should be two small changes to the way things are currently done...
1. Allow players to remove their own saves from the runnings. This would allow experienced players to give an example of how things should be done, but their saves won't be considered for continuing the game.
2. Vote on which saves (of those who are self-confessed Monarch players) are best. The top half of saves (however many this might be--if there are 6 saves, then top 3, of 4 then top 2) get props for playing 'above average'. This would put a more positive spin on things, so that monarch players can feel like they did really well, rather than feeling like they did poorly when their save is compared to those of more experienced players. The save that is at the top of the 'average' saves will be the one that is used.
As I see it, one big problem with the 'trash pick' type games is that it isn't as fun to be picked as first. By still congratulating (and maybe pointing out what they did right) those players who are first among Monarch level players, we keep that competition alive... but at the same time, we don't use the save of whoever came in first in order to keep the challenge alive...
The more experienced players also deserve to play a challenging game, so the idea of an Immortal/Emperor level game is totally a good idea.
ok there seems to be quite a lot of support for the immortal cookbook idea, so i will start it up soon (possibly today), if no one has any objections. some things to consider:
1. do you simply want a best-save format?
2. do we limit some players (i'm looking at you rusten) or just accept better saves?
1. do you simply want a best-save format?
2. do we limit some players (i'm looking at you rusten) or just accept better saves?
r_rolo1
King of myself
Well, IMHO even players less strong than Rusten could easily push the game up. I would say to run the first game in best save ruleset and see how it runs. Immortal cakewalks should be diferent of a monarch cakewalk anyway
I'll try to participate And if you need logistical help, just say....
I'll try to participate
And if you need logistical help, just say....BornSlippy
Warlord
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 119
Well, I haven't read through the entire thread, but what about doing it the same way as the LHC - where the players can choose their own difficulties etc? Then everybody can play on the same map with the same opponents and compare strategies.
Come to think of it this has surely been suggested before, but...
Come to think of it this has surely been suggested before, but...
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