The Monarchists' Cookbook Bullpen

[futurehermit]

I never reload

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Monarchist Cookbook Game II: Pericles of Greece

 

[Bleys]

From the Game 2 thread, continued discussion about the "use of Spoilers for discussion" situation:

I know we set the "No going to the game thread, because round discussion can be done without using spoilers" thing sort of decided, but I think that needs a minor modification. I think we should amend that rule to be "After the first round, all discussion of strategy can be done openly without spoilers, and anyone who wishes to play a "Best Ball" should avoid reading the main game thread until they have played their own round and are prepared to post it".

I am thinking about it along these lines because we DO want to encourage players to "join in" that first round, so having open discussion ABOUT the first round would be sort of counter productive to that. Does that make sense? What I mean is that as players (in this case Quotey, TMIT and I) finish the round, we should chat about it in spoilers as Quotey did, so that new players coming to the game wont be seeing spoiler info. Once the round is played, and players are aware of the "No Spoilers Required in rounds 2-6" thing, there shouldnt be a worry about it, but I think keeping those very very early comments in spoilers is for the best. I play first-day, every round, but I know others dont have that kind of availability (in other words, they have REAL lives while I am just a computer gaming junkie, LOL, but in my defense, I dont work and can easily do my house-work-chores as I play).

 

[Diamondeye]

Agree with Bleys.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

That sounds good ... SPOILER tags in Round 1 ... none in Round 2 til end of Game.

I'm assuming Round Reports continue to all be in SPOILER tags?

 

[Bleys]

I'm assuming Round Reports continue to all be in SPOILER tags?

Definitely, since it really streamlines the thread a ton. I have been meaning to actually put all my screenshots inside their own spoiler tags inside the main report, which is in a spoiler.

 

[Diamondeye]

Yes. I am going to post first episode of my Bismark round and then go ahead and start on this one . Updated OP by the way, I am adding the new rounds system as well.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

RE: reloading:

I think any time reloading is done to affect the RNG (i.e., battles, goodie huts, random events, etc), it's cheating.

Similarly, if reloading is done in response to a situation or turn of events previously unknown or unnoticed, it's cheating.

To me, the only time reloading isn't blatant cheating is when it's done so to correct an action (or lack thereof) previously known about but simply mistook -- such as having a Worker start a Cottage instead of a Farm or neglecting to whip a city at the right moment.

I don't reload in any of the series games I play on the forums, with perhaps one exception: when I jump a difficulty level and realize that to compete at it I need to tighten up my play. I reloaded at one point in the Immortal Hannibal game, but mostly because I'm not quite an immortal player yet . Laughably in that game I wound up going back and doing exactly what I did initially, and winning in the end, which was a learning experience all the way around.

IMO using reloads in a "best ball" game format like this is a bit tacky, but I don't really care if other people do it. I won't be though.

The main reason I'll save/reload is to see what STRATEGIC choice variation can have on the outcome of a game. That's why you'll often see me save before declaring war or something. If that ends in catastrophe, I'll usually go back to before the war and pick a different target or not attack...doing so over extended periods of time has allowed me to get a feel for situations where tactics are effective and where they're not. There's a place for that sort of thing, but IMO it isn't the monarchist's cookbook. After all, you'll see at least 6+ alternative decisions anyway, and if you tank a save to hell you can just pick up on someone who didn't screw that part up, which is just as much of a learning experience .

IMO, if you miss a whip or something and care, reload. I can't be bothered for crap like that, I usually just note that I screwed up and run with it anyway...my opening in MC II is a good example of this (even if embarassing that i'd forgotten who my leader was).

 

[OTAKUjbski]

RE: reloading:

If anybody is caught reloading, what is the consequence?


Change of topic: "error checking" the starting save:

I think we need to tighten up our non start criteria.

Copper in BFC + Copper UU + close neighbour = over-powered (ezMode).

Even with my rough start, my save is still beyond winnable, because the only real threat (Monty) is choked to the south.

----

I think when future saves are checked, we need to chose the middle of the pack save (or maybe even from the bottom third).


-- my 2

 

[Diamondeye]

RE: reloading:

If anybody is caught reloading, what is the consequence?

Their save will not be eligable - perhaps exclude their save next round / rest of that game?

Change of topic: "error checking" the starting save:

I think we need to tighten up our non start criteria.

Copper in BFC + Copper UU + close neighbour = over-powered (ezMode).

Even with my rough start, my save is still beyond winnable, because the only real threat (Monty) is choked to the south.

----

I think when future saves are checked, we need to chose the middle of the pack save (or maybe even from the bottom third).


-- my 2

Agree definately. This is another combustion mob-up, even clearer than the first game. We might want to pick some games where even our Emperor/Immortal players (Vale ) might have some challenge

 

[Bleys]

I think we will be hard-pressed to find many games that will be "challenging" for us to win on Monarch though, since we are ALL strong players. In games like this, where we are all on our "best attention to detail" we are likely to end up with mostly blow-outs.

That being said, there is still a lot of room for learning here. Mopping up after a rush isnt as easy as we think, just look at all the players who post about struggling in the middle game after tanking their economies by over-expanding or over-keeping enemy cities.

As for the re-load thing, if there are some blatant obvious re-loads, then we should privately make the player aware of the situation and request he not do it again, as another infraction would mean banning from the game altogether. However, I dont think we should openly call anyone out in the public thread, so if you have a suspicion, send some PMs and we can decide how to deal with it case-by-case.

 

[Diamondeye]

Okay Bleys' solution to reloading seems better now that I think of it.

And we might have to make it the Emperors cookbook soon enough , or get some really nasty games. Too bad I threw that Boedica-isolated after killing Stalin-save away, that might have made a fine challenge... Maybe not in this series, but a Win this game one...

 

[OTAKUjbski]

... so if you have a suspicion ...

I just want to say I'm not calling anybody out ... nor do I wish to claim specific suspicion and raise an alarm.

I have also refrained from checking the MC1 saves for the tell-tale signs of reloading, because I don't want to know what might've happened.

We had previously never discussed the topic, so any reloading which may have occurred is a moot issue by now, IMO.

----

It was just a general thought that came to mind after I reloaded an offline game to ... "rethink" ... my overzealous war strategy.

Since we hadn't specifically and officially addressed the issue, I figured I'd bring it up for discussion.

 

[Diamondeye]

Good thinking. Is it worth adding a notice in OP about this?

 

[Winston Hughes]

On the difficulty of the current map, I'd like to:

1) apologise for messing up.
and/or
2) ask you all to wait until you've actually achieved a winning position before you use terms like ezMode.

On getting a suitable map for future games, I can only suggest that you:

1) find someone with a better grasp of what's needed.
and/or
2) wait until you've played a few rounds of the current game, and let me explain exactly why I chose this map.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

You're right ... we've only seen 120 Turns of the map, so it's definitely too early to call anything anything.

---

And you know ... maybe none of us have a grasp of what's needed. It's easy for me to play the role of armchair quarterback, so for doing that here I apologize.

 

[r_rolo1]

Well, I´ve some experience on making maps for other people ( so I suppose that Wiston made a good job ... making maps for others is not as easy as most of people think: my S man experience showed me that ) and I'm not very in ezmode about this. Not that the relgions and the wonders are falling too fast or something, but having monty as a neighbour is not good in my book

I'm pretty sure that this map has plenty to show... this is clearly a hemisphers or costum continents and all is going to be decided by the land that we haven't saw yet and their inhabitants. I give winston my vote of trust.

About reloading.... pls ppl , chill out. I reload sometimes and I reloaded sometimes in this game ( I choosed warrior first when I wanted a worker and managed to confuse Writing with IW when choosing a tech and only noticed 6 turns after... yes I was sleepy as hell ) , but heavy reloading is somewhat unnecessary ( and time consuming as hell ) with the preserve random seed option on.... and rarely the spoiler info is useful enough to justify it, especially in a Epic speed map.

 

[Winston Hughes]

And you know ... maybe none of us have a grasp of what's needed.

I think that part is quite straightforward. I've already typed a report explaining my choice, and setting out what I think is needed for this kind of game. However, it talks about features of the current map that you've yet to see, so I can't post it yet.

The really hard part is finding a map that has all the necessary ingredients. This map didn't (again, you'll have to wait for the explanation), but nor did any of the others I rolled in my 3+ hours of regen-WB-regen-WB-etc.

And, irritatingly, each regen seemed to take longer than the last (probably something to do with my crappy computer). By the tenth try, it was actually quicker to quit back to the main menu and generate a fresh game. If it wasn't for that, you would've had a different leader.

It's easy for me to play the role of armchair quarterback, so for doing that here I apologize.

No probs. It's obviously a very strong start (esp. given the leader), and I fully expected people to think "wow, this looks easy".

Actually, I was sort of hoping that overconfidence would lead one or two players to get careless, and mess things up a bit at the start. Do you think that might've been partly to blame for your problems? I know from hard experience how easy, and how damaging, it can be to count your chickens before they've hatched (see CamH's Stalin RPG).

About reloading.... pls ppl , chill out.

I agree, to an extent...

If players want to reload to correct minor errors of memory or hand-eye co-ordination, I can't see the harm. (The latter is often my problem, although I played slow - and sober - enough that I didn't need any reloads in the first game.)

But reloading to try a different approach (eg. to an invasion) after the first one has gone wrong should be discouraged imo. Apart from being unfair in the best ball competition, giving carte blanche for that kind of reload would defeat the object of asking players not to read or play ahead.

 

[Diamondeye]

If Rammeses, Wang Kon, Mansa Musa and Pacal are sitting clapping hands overseas, with an Isabella isolated to grab all religions but the one they share, it'll be hard. Agreed.

I do infact suspect Ramesses after the early GLH grab, although it could be Stalin, Bismarck or that American... Roosevelt, I think, too.

 

[Bleys]

GLH didnt go fast in my game though, its still open and I am 1 chop away. I dont know why another AI went for it in one game, but not another, since there is no real difference here (unlike the LHCs, where players choose various speeds and difficulties that lead to the Wonders being built in a variety of years).