The new crazed

[xienwolf]

What strategy was there with the old enraged? Build a meta-node, dispell it, build a law node, cast loyalty on everything, then TRY to get enraged so that you could have a free bonus to movement and strength that was never intended.

That is twinking, not strategy.


Sure, new one has some issues, but it is a step in the right direction.

 

[Grey Fox]

Enraged is supposed to be annoying. The old one was just a calculated risk of losing your unit after X turns. But I would like them to be more aggressive, not the cowards they are now. They should attack till they die or calm down. Not sit and defend a city.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

giving loyalty a "calm" effect that removes enraged would be good imho. that way you don't get the additional buff that the promo gives, but you get back control over the unit. and I still think that workers, settlers, GP etc. should NEVER get enraged, cuz that's just not fun. it sucks, period. the Momus scenario right now is kinda unplayable imho, your starting settlers run around like crazy... :\

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In FfH Asylums are more about making people insane than curing insanity. Of course, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have ways of subduing the mad men who are kept there. I'm thinking it could be good for Asylums still give out Crazed to units built there, but also remove Enraged onMove.


For now I made Loyalty remove Enraged, but I think I'd rather remove the spell, moving Valor down to Law I and either adding Banish (a resistible anti-demon and maybe anti-other-evil-unit spell that kills directly, possibly making it cast Escape sometimes instead of killing the unit, not just doing damage) or making Unyielding Order be Law III again and finding something else for Priors.

Calm sounds like an ideal Spirit spell to me. I'm thinking it would remove Enraged from all living units (friendly, neutral, and enemy) units within a 1 tile range, but leave Crazed in place. Since Hope gives courage too, maybe the Courage spell should be changed to Calm. Of course, that might not be good for the Khazad if there are Dragons that need slaying. Maybe the effects of the Hope building should be nerfed a little, and Calm should be Spirit II (possibly being able to remove Crazed too?)

 

[Sarisin]

What strategy was there with the old enraged? Build a meta-node, dispell it, build a law node, cast loyalty on everything, then TRY to get enraged so that you could have a free bonus to movement and strength that was never intended.

That is twinking, not strategy.


Sure, new one has some issues, but it is a step in the right direction.

Maybe, xienwolf, but at least YOU the player have some control with the old way. With this new system you have none. It is only a small part of the game, but it has taken something out of the hands of the human player and given it to the ******** AI you sometimes see. Let me give you an example:

My Great Werewolf kills a unit. A Ravenous Werewolf is created, but before you can say lychanthropy, he is gone. Control lost.

He pulls up next to a group of Sidar Workers - I am at war with the Sidar. Easy, he kills the workers gains his Blooded Werewolf status, right? No. He ignores them and moves on to be killed by a Sidar Axeman. The same thing happened a little later with an on the loose Ravenous Werewolf and a wounded Sidar Chariot that was easy pickins' The Werewolf doesn't attack the sure kill and moves on TO BE KILLED by a stronger unit.

Now, if I had control of that Ravenous Werewolf I would have killed those units and got the unit promoted. But, no, I cannot do that.

What I'm saying is give us a choice:

1. Allow us to run the unit and find something to kill or let the unit go barb, die, or whatever. Don't leave it up to the AI to do this.

2. Let there be something that allows you to keep your unit whether it is Loyalty (I'm still waiting to hear what this spell does now in the game) Calm or whatever.

Then, of course, you have the issue on what to do if there are NO viable targets out there to kill. Number 2 above or something that causes the Crazed/Enraged to wear off would be helpful there.

Honestly, it isn't a game breaker, but it is very frustrating to lose control to bad AI. Losing Ravenous Werewolves isn't a big deal, but when AC 90 hits and some of your Enraged Big Boys start leaving, then it gets to be unfun.

 

[Dux_]

Game mechanics that involve you losing units control to the ai are not only no fun, they are silly, & they discourage the use of the mutation spell, freaks, lunatics, & even dungeon exploring with important units cause hey, they can go enraged & they'll just wander off.

I think we should go back to the old enraged.

 

[Fafnir13]

What strategy was there with the old enraged? Build a meta-node, dispell it, build a law node, cast loyalty on everything, then TRY to get enraged so that you could have a free bonus to movement and strength that was never intended.

That is twinking, not strategy.


Sure, new one has some issues, but it is a step in the right direction.

Good design doesn't have to happen intentionally. The old crazed was one of the worst promotions you could get on a unit as it was a guaranteed eventual loss of said unit. At one point, I even made a post decrying it's existence. The pedia entry back then (don't know if it's changed by now or not) only said that loyalty made your unit die instead of going over to someone else's control. But with the right application of technology, you could make it into a good bonus. Yet you call it twinking? If you're playing around with meta-nodes, you've made some good progress down the magic tree. Why not find rewards for your input in that area?

If, as your comment about it being in the right direction would indicate, crazed is supposed to be something bad something needs to be given to the player to get rid of it. Not a Civ specific thing. Not even a religion specific thing (although the OO having something that retains full control over enraged units would be quite appropriate). It has to be available to everyone or you are making many areas of the game unplayable.

Game mechanics that involve you losing units control to the ai are not only no fun, they are silly, & they discourage the use of the mutation spell, freaks, lunatics, & even dungeon exploring with important units cause hey, they can go enraged & they'll just wander off.

You forgot the use of Asylums (they come with a chance of making any unit built in the city crazed), the use of chaos mana (has a chance of making any unit built mutated), the use of many event "rewards" (various units start with crazed), and playing with the Sheaim and Hyborem in game as they increase the likelihood of the AC hitting the micromanagement hell known as 90. That's if you even want to play with the AC on.

One last thing I'll mention is something both a friend and I came up with. The effects of the current rage are the sort of nasty things you might expect from an enemy spell. Causing you to lose control of your unit and making it run off to it's probably doom, with a little tweaking, would be a great spell. Slap it with a duration, let it be dispelled by dispel magic, and let units with magic immunity laugh it off. Would work great there, although some would definitely call it over powered if it was anything less then a tier II spell. The only problem I could see with it is that (as Sarisin has noted in other posts) the AI doesn't seem to suffer the same effects as players do, their enraged units happily sitting in their cities as if nothings going on. Would require some more work for proper implementation.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Taking crazy people, equipping them with weapons, and dropping them into a war zone isn't exactly the best idea in the first place. Why should it benefit any civ to have a certifiably insane army? And isn't the point of Armageddon and AC to actually, you know... end the world? Why should it just be a slap on the wrist? I have never played a game where the AC hit 90+ without my civ being a significant cause of said Armageddon. What is wrong with having consequences of your actions? By the way, chaos mana has about a >1/100 chance of starting a unit with mutated. Of those, most will not start with enraged. This means that 99.9% of enraged instances before AC 90 are caused by the player. And since AC 90 is relatively easy to avoid, it is possible to avoid the bad promotion.

 

[Ranos]

Maybe, xienwolf, but at least YOU the player have some control with the old way. With this new system you have none. It is only a small part of the game, but it has taken something out of the hands of the human player and given it to the ******** AI you sometimes see. Let me give you an example:

My Great Werewolf kills a unit. A Ravenous Werewolf is created, but before you can say lychanthropy, he is gone. Control lost.

He pulls up next to a group of Sidar Workers - I am at war with the Sidar. Easy, he kills the workers gains his Blooded Werewolf status, right? No. He ignores them and moves on to be killed by a Sidar Axeman. The same thing happened a little later with an on the loose Ravenous Werewolf and a wounded Sidar Chariot that was easy pickins' The Werewolf doesn't attack the sure kill and moves on TO BE KILLED by a stronger unit.

Now, if I had control of that Ravenous Werewolf I would have killed those units and got the unit promoted. But, no, I cannot do that.

Does anybody have control over crazy people? I think that the point of the udate is to better simulate this. As xienwolf said, with Loyalty cast on the unit, Enraged was nothing more than a free strength movement promotion until you attacked something.

As for the Enraged units not attacking smartly, either it is a feature where the crazy person doesn't care about the weak because they are nothing but the strong are actually a challenge they might be able to have fun with or it is just the bugs that come with a new feature. If Enraged gets changed so the unit just starts attacking any unit it comes across, then this won't be a problem, unless of course the first unit is stronger than it.

What I'm saying is give us a choice:

1. Allow us to run the unit and find something to kill or let the unit go barb, die, or whatever. Don't leave it up to the AI to do this.

2. Let there be something that allows you to keep your unit whether it is Loyalty (I'm still waiting to hear what this spell does now in the game) Calm or whatever.

1. So now you are talking about making Enraged the same as before but Loyalty would have no effect. So you still get to keep control of your units for a while, but then you may lose them forever. In the late game, this will probably include some highly promoted units that would then turn around and destroy your cities.

2. I think a spell that could be cast after your units are enraged that would allow you to gain control back would be good but not before. That would make the entire effect useless.

As for what Loyalty does now, certain units can get promotions that give them a % chance to take control of a defeated unit. Loyalty prevents this from happenning.

Then, of course, you have the issue on what to do if there are NO viable targets out there to kill. Number 2 above or something that causes the Crazed/Enraged to wear off would be helpful there.

Honestly, it isn't a game breaker, but it is very frustrating to lose control to bad AI. Losing Ravenous Werewolves isn't a big deal, but when AC 90 hits and some of your Enraged Big Boys start leaving, then it gets to be unfun.

If there are no targets to kill, then you have already won the game and there is no point to this. Otherwise, declare war on the nearest civ (or some civ you hate) and watch as your boys start killing and losing Enraged.

I still agree that a spell to allow you to get them back would be a good thing.

 

[Sarisin]

Does anybody have control over crazy people? I think that the point of the udate is to better simulate this. As xienwolf said, with Loyalty cast on the unit, Enraged was nothing more than a free strength movement promotion until you attacked something.

Well, living in Northern Wisconsin must be a hoot with all those crazy people running around. Maybe it's the cheese? Of course there are ways to control crazy people - at least our fine Psychotherapists and Mental Clinics would think so. OT, but you make some good points, but make no suggestions for dealing with the new systems as it is. Have you had AC 90 hit in you games yet? Did you build the Baron? Seriously, I am looking for strategies in dealing with it. Otherwise, you have a combination of bugs (being fixed I am sure) and, well, crazy people running allover the place.

As for the Enraged units not attacking smartly, either it is a feature where the crazy person doesn't care about the weak because they are nothing but the strong are actually a challenge they might be able to have fun with or it is just the bugs that come with a new feature. If Enraged gets changed so the unit just starts attacking any unit it comes across, then this won't be a problem, unless of course the first unit is stronger than it.

Come on, do you actually believe what you just wrote there? Shouldn't the AI be programmed to attack the weaker targets? I think you'll find that this is usually the case in the game/mod. By why does it work differently for the crazed/enraged units? As a human player, you attack the weaker units, why shouldn't the AI do the same - especially when it means losing your craziness?



1. So now you are talking about making Enraged the same as before but Loyalty would have no effect. So you still get to keep control of your units for a while, but then you may lose them forever. In the late game, this will probably include some highly promoted units that would then turn around and destroy your cities.

But, I would not have lost them in the two examples I gave you, would I have? By my attacking the weak Workers and damaged Chariots, I would have kept my units. But, the AI, in control, passed them by and my units were lost. If my cities are not fortified in the late game well enough to defend against one unit, I deserve to lose it. But, again, I would have the chance using my game skill to go out and try and kill something (or use a spell), not depend on the AI to run around missing fat targets.

2. I think a spell that could be cast after your units are enraged that would allow you to gain control back would be good but not before. That would make the entire effect useless.

As for what Loyalty does now, certain units can get promotions that give them a % chance to take control of a defeated unit. Loyalty prevents this from happenning.

I see your point here, but again, what is wrong with preparing in advance of some bad event happening? If you are close to AC 40, aren't you going to run around and give your units Courage so they can take on the Horsemen with their Fear? It's all about planning in the game. I see nothing different with using Loyalty to plan for the eventual dumping of Enraged on the units.

Your second point came up before, and, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. The only time that would happen is with Command, and how often does the AI use that? In a multiplayer human vs. human game, OK, but in play against the computer, you will never need to have Loyalty on your units now. I don't think it works with Domination and, again, I don't recall the AI using that spell.




If there are no targets to kill, then you have already won the game and there is no point to this. Otherwise, declare war on the nearest civ (or some civ you hate) and watch as your boys start killing and losing Enraged.

Again, you can't possibly mean this. Haven't you played games where the civs are all defensive pacted-up and declaring war would be sheer suicide? I guess game speed has something to do with this, but in the longer games (I use epic speed) you really are in for a long haul and if your goal is an Altar or Cultural victory, for example, the last thing you want to do is declare a war...because you have to. You haven't won the game yet, and a war would divert you from your goal. Fortunately, in most games, I think there would be a chance for war, or there could be some barbs still on the map. However, the game I described in the AC 90 thread had no, I repeat no, viable targets when that event hit. Declaring war for the sake of this just would not have been a smart thing to do.

I still agree that a spell to allow you to get them back would be a good thing.

And, in this we are in total agreement. And, Ranos, I do appreciate your comments - just stay away from all those uncontrollable crazy people around you.

 

[Bad Player]

What strategy was there with the old enraged? Build a meta-node, dispell it, build a law node, cast loyalty on everything, then TRY to get enraged so that you could have a free bonus to movement and strength that was never intended.

That is twinking, not strategy.


Sure, new one has some issues, but it is a step in the right direction.

I agree but I think an easy solution might be to remove the enraged promotion after 5 turns OR combat. Currently the enraged promotion is almost a death sentence.

 

[Jules.lt]

Same as before, for those of us who didn't know the loyalty trick... (i.e: bad)

I'd really like to see a soothe spell and/or handler units/promotions.

 

[xilr]

I always felt like having to loyalty each unit was a pain in the butt. Enough of one that it compensated for the added movement speed and attack. Casting loyalty on enraged units was a decent way to make "slightly better" troops...giving yourself a small edge on the AI. It wasnt "so good" that I choose to play Pent/Keel just for that. It didnt seem overpowered at all.

What is broken is having your units turn on you, attacking your cities, killing your workers and worse....pillaging tiles within the "security" of your own border.

Loyalty + Enraged wasnt enough reason *alone* to play Keelyn/Pent, however Enraged being essentially unstoppable is enough a reason to avoid playing Keelyn/Pent.

 

[loocas]

I still think the change is a good idea because the old version was exploitative. The new version is a fun wildcard and more flavorful. My only request is that there be a message that "Your UNIT has gone crazy." I also think that raising the convert % of werewolves may compensate for their rate of loss, as well as making lunatics stronger to make them more desirable. Also, I noticed that a crazed freak will dash off and make a freak show.

It's true that it's annoying and more difficult make an army of werewolves. That just means the promotion's effective in its role. An army of werewolves is not going to be your main strategy, not without an outdated mod, and so crazed won't threaten your actual game. And god forbid Armageddon make things difficult. I understand that it's hurting some people's experience, but I think it fits, it's fun, and it's a good change.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

What about combining the two versions? I'm thinking it could be good for enraged units to be AI controlled and then still have a very small chance to turn barbarian or to have Enraged wear off.

I'm also thinking that the Pool of Tears should remove Crazed and Enraged, and that a Spirit spell should be able to remove Enraged.

 

[snarko]

Could always make it so that loyalty (or some other spell) remove enraged but enraged also remove loyalty (or the other spell). That way when you get an enraged unit you can counter it but you can't get just the benefits and not the penalty.

 

[Sarisin]

I still think the change is a good idea because the old version was exploitative. The new version is a fun wildcard and more flavorful. My only request is that there be a message that "Your UNIT has gone crazy." I also think that raising the convert % of werewolves may compensate for their rate of loss, as well as making lunatics stronger to make them more desirable. Also, I noticed that a crazed freak will dash off and make a freak show.

It's true that it's annoying and more difficult make an army of werewolves. That just means the promotion's effective in its role. An army of werewolves is not going to be your main strategy, not without an outdated mod, and so crazed won't threaten your actual game. And god forbid Armageddon make things difficult. I understand that it's hurting some people's experience, but I think it fits, it's fun, and it's a good change.

Yeah, loocas, I agree with what you are saying on the Werewolves. It is certainly not a gamebreaker - it is just a bit annoying, that's all.

However, you really need to experience AC 90 and see what you think.

I believe those who are supporting the change have not had the AC 90 event yet in one of their .40 games with the new crazed/enraged system.

I probably don't make it that far in most of my games either, but when you do, I think the combination of existing bugs, unknowns, and other assorted phenomena will make you change your tune on the new system.

But, let's give the team a chance to see what they come up with and, in the meantime, keep your AC very, very low!

 

[Imuratep]

There is a way to control crazed units - Give them long term tasks (like walking 10 turns to the border of your enemy). But this is so unfitting and unhandy that I consider it more a bug than a feature.

I agree that there should be some way to work with crazed units.
1.Infirmaries could remove the crazed and the enraged promotion. The technology and the building both are expensive enough to prevent the promotion from doing nothing. Perhaps there should be some chance for those units to die or to become barbarian. Psychotherapy doesn't always work, especially in Middle Ages...
2. Aquae Sucellus could allow to create potions of blessed water that you could use to remove diseased, poisoned, crazed, enraged etc.
3. Units with Medic2 or Medic3 could get a spell that calms the crazed/ enraged units for a certain number of turns. These units would get a promotion "sedated", that makes the unit immune to crazed, but also makes the unit unable to attack. This way you could move him to enemy borders, till you want him to attack.

 

[Brokenbone]

LOL, sedated. Maybe reduce them to 0 strength like a worker while sedated, so that they're captured like workers. Means some "orderlies" should be guarding them, such as Champions or Axemen or something. I picture humorous encounters like "stealing someone's drugged up unit, and unleashing the guy upon his previous tormentors once the sedation wears off."

 

[Asthix]

What about combining the two versions? I'm thinking it could be good for enraged units to be AI controlled and then still have a very small chance to turn barbarian or to have Enraged wear off.

I'm also thinking that the Pool of Tears should remove Crazed and Enraged.

Lots of great ideas (escorts for the loonies) but as usual Magister has the ones I like best.