Perhaps as alternatives if the rebel and european units require strategic resources?
Best,
Oz
PS I also stumbled across the puppy below.
-O.
EDIT: NOW IN FANTASY D/L DB
The New World Mod
- Thread starter Sword_Of_Geddon
- Start date
Perhaps as alternatives if the rebel and european units require strategic resources?
Best,
Oz
PS I also stumbled across the puppy below.
-O.
EDIT: NOW IN FANTASY D/L DB
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
@ SoG, Are you going to be making any units for this game?
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I may if there are a lot of gaps in unit lines. Since there are so many native units of various sorts available I might not have to.
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
You might have to for the inuit, and Nookta/NW Pacific Indians.
I am not a huge fan of the whole alternate history thing (being of a disposition inclined towards thinking fantasy should stick to fantasy, and as such, what-if not being historical at all)
However, if you are inclined towards fantastical elements, then the more reasonable the better.
Personally, I would contemporary units from that region to represent this time period.
However, if you are inclined towards fantastical elements, then the more reasonable the better.
Personally, I would contemporary units from that region to represent this time period.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I plan on having the Haida, but not the Inuit as of yet. I do plan on adding more tribes later, but for the most part I'd like to stick to my list(I have to amend it to add the Hawaiians and Rapa Nui as well as the later Andean civ, with the Moche being removed)
I agree with you somewhat Quincy. I don't have a problem with using some of them though, such as that ship, as a later age unit for the Haida. In Shiro's upcoming packs he has alot of "rebel" units, which are things like Incan Cavalry, Aztec Swordsman(with spanish steel swords) and stuff like that. I'll be using those.
I agree with you somewhat Quincy. I don't have a problem with using some of them though, such as that ship, as a later age unit for the Haida. In Shiro's upcoming packs he has alot of "rebel" units, which are things like Incan Cavalry, Aztec Swordsman(with spanish steel swords) and stuff like that. I'll be using those.
That sounds much more reasonable.
I remember reading somewhere that Aztec nobility used Spanish swords, but rather than use them as-is, they attached them to poles and made something of a halberd out of them.
I'll do my research and see if it was true, and where the information came from.
I remember reading somewhere that Aztec nobility used Spanish swords, but rather than use them as-is, they attached them to poles and made something of a halberd out of them.
I'll do my research and see if it was true, and where the information came from.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Framing the discussion as historical vs. fantastic is prejudicial. Civ is by nature and necessity alternate history. To keep things strictly historical would mean that there would be no need for medieval units that are uniquely Hittite since that civ would never survive to that era. "What if the Aztecs resisted European encroachment?" implies continuation of a distinct culture. Such a separation - in game terms - leads to the need for a unit line that both technically evolves and remains uniquely Aztec.
A cannon that looks like Quetzalcoatl is no more fanciful than this historical field piece. The Mughals also used cannons decorated with dragon-like scales. Elements of similar concerns are present in the modern world. Modern uniforms are palimpsests of the military history of their nation.
There is sound "shock and awe" reasoning behind the design of stealth fighters that look like bats & assault helicopters that look like voracious insects. Extrapolation based on research & imagination is quite different from confabulation. It is not "fantasy" to speculate about the look of more modern equipment that might have been produced by any culture that values decoration as well as function.
... And if you extend the mod far enough you can use my favorite "what-if" Aztec unit
(by Wyrmshadow) Click on it - the .gif is animated.Attachments
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
You posted no link for the "ballista".
You mean the "siege crossbow" in Post 61?
7ronin
海軍少佐
Blue: nice exposition on the historical vs. the fantastic. Even with a supposed historical scenario, the farther you journey from year one, the further you deviate from "history." Part of the fun is changing history. If the games were weighted so that the historical outcome always prevailed there wouldn't be much point in playing them.
Blue, while your argument is correct, the same logic could be applied to any other units. Why have medieval British units when the Celtic tribes could have survived longer?
Why follow any historical path at all if one is to deviate from it so much?
My real wish is that Civ could have a sort of unit creation process in-game, where you could 'build' units as your discover technologies, like in Alpha Centurai.
Why follow any historical path at all if one is to deviate from it so much?
My real wish is that Civ could have a sort of unit creation process in-game, where you could 'build' units as your discover technologies, like in Alpha Centurai.
Blue Monkey
Archon Without Portfolio
Yup.
(Oz runs off to d/l db ...)
FILE ADDED TO FANTASY UNITS D/L DB!
See Post #61 for preview.
-
z
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I can see where your coming from Quincy. Here is what I could do..
Since the main mod is more or less going by history, with each era representing the development of civilization as well as the events that shaped life for people of the new world, I'm not going to have much space for some of the cooler what-if units(Utah's cannon and knight). If anyone has an idea on how I could I'd love to hear it though.
On the other hand, here is a snag in a totally historical appraoch. The Toltecs are the big Mexican civ in this mod. Since the mod starts at 1000 AD, I decided not to add the Aztecs. By the time Europe becomes a factor in the mod, we arrive at a purely "what if" scenerio, since by that time the Toltecs had long since been destroyed. In this mod they may survive to the time of European contact, which assumes several possible things:
-1. The Toltecs managed to survive and prevent the collapse of their empire. Their culture, technology and society would continue to evolve for a few more hundred years. What would the Toltec's do with captured european weapons and technology? We know the Aztecs considered gunpowder to be evil, but made use of spanish swords(and horses?). Would the Toltecs have the same cultural attitudes towards gunpowder(They could view it as "Godpowder" or a divine weapon more suited for them than the spanish)? I doubt they would have considered Cortez a god as the Aztecs did, and the Toltecs probably would not have been as hated as the aztecs were, that makes Cortez conquest of the Toltecs much more difficult.
In summery for 1. :
-Toltecs could possibly use Utah's mesoamerican units, if they reverse engineered the cannon and learned to use gunpowder, as well as Utah's Knight.
-2: We could also use the "Steph Approach", that is, Civilizations change into different ones as the eras progress. For example, the Toltecs would "become" the Aztecs. This would present a very historical approach, but also presents some problems, as this mod assumes said civilizations survive, including even European conquest.
-3. There are a number of historical native american units availible for use, however, there are also afew units that don't exist aside from Steph's conversions, which I would rather avoid using for the sake of uniformity. If there is a what-if type unit for a civilization lacking a proper historical one, I think I should use it, even if its just a placeholder.
Thoughts?
Since the main mod is more or less going by history, with each era representing the development of civilization as well as the events that shaped life for people of the new world, I'm not going to have much space for some of the cooler what-if units(Utah's cannon and knight). If anyone has an idea on how I could I'd love to hear it though.
On the other hand, here is a snag in a totally historical appraoch. The Toltecs are the big Mexican civ in this mod. Since the mod starts at 1000 AD, I decided not to add the Aztecs. By the time Europe becomes a factor in the mod, we arrive at a purely "what if" scenerio, since by that time the Toltecs had long since been destroyed. In this mod they may survive to the time of European contact, which assumes several possible things:
-1. The Toltecs managed to survive and prevent the collapse of their empire. Their culture, technology and society would continue to evolve for a few more hundred years. What would the Toltec's do with captured european weapons and technology? We know the Aztecs considered gunpowder to be evil, but made use of spanish swords(and horses?). Would the Toltecs have the same cultural attitudes towards gunpowder(They could view it as "Godpowder" or a divine weapon more suited for them than the spanish)? I doubt they would have considered Cortez a god as the Aztecs did, and the Toltecs probably would not have been as hated as the aztecs were, that makes Cortez conquest of the Toltecs much more difficult.
In summery for 1. :
-Toltecs could possibly use Utah's mesoamerican units, if they reverse engineered the cannon and learned to use gunpowder, as well as Utah's Knight.
-2: We could also use the "Steph Approach", that is, Civilizations change into different ones as the eras progress. For example, the Toltecs would "become" the Aztecs. This would present a very historical approach, but also presents some problems, as this mod assumes said civilizations survive, including even European conquest.
-3. There are a number of historical native american units availible for use, however, there are also afew units that don't exist aside from Steph's conversions, which I would rather avoid using for the sake of uniformity. If there is a what-if type unit for a civilization lacking a proper historical one, I think I should use it, even if its just a placeholder.
Thoughts?
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
No opinions?
ShiroKobbure
Still modding Civ3
if your mod starts at 1000 AD its almost at the transition of the fall of the Toltec and the rise of the Mexica, so why not have both. Its bending history a bit, but not too much I think.
Will you mod give the civs their historic territories? Or will each civ have one city?
My opinion is the mod should go too far out of the 16th century, and for American civs to use historic or reasonable units, like Aztecs with swords, or cannons with dragon heads. But not Napoleonic uniforms with Jaguar heads. Although some of those what-if ships look nice...
Will you mod give the civs their historic territories? Or will each civ have one city?
My opinion is the mod should go too far out of the 16th century, and for American civs to use historic or reasonable units, like Aztecs with swords, or cannons with dragon heads. But not Napoleonic uniforms with Jaguar heads. Although some of those what-if ships look nice...
I'm with Blue Monkey viz. the nature of alternate reality unit lines -- different circumstances (even those unfolding in a Civ game) would yield a different reality. The critical point is deciding how far YOU want to take this. E.g., if you're convinced the Spanish will overrun as they historically did, then Spanish units will a priori be in use. If (probably the most likely case ... ?) the Incas survive European contact, then extrapolation is, I would suggest, necessary.
Personally, I would stop at the 7 Years War because of the degree of global European fighting going on at that time. There should be sufficient units to "what-if" up to that point (and I, for one, am happy to help with suggestions.)
Best,
Oz
Personally, I would stop at the 7 Years War because of the degree of global European fighting going on at that time. There should be sufficient units to "what-if" up to that point (and I, for one, am happy to help with suggestions.)
Best,
Oz
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
if your mod starts at 1000 AD its almost at the transition of the fall of the Toltec and the rise of the Mexica, so why not have both. Its bending history a bit, but not too much I think.
Will you mod give the civs their historic territories? Or will each civ have one city?
My opinion is the mod should go too far out of the 16th century, and for American civs to use historic or reasonable units, like Aztecs with swords, or cannons with dragon heads. But not Napoleonic uniforms with Jaguar heads. Although some of those what-if ships look nice...
That isn't a bad idea. I guess I could add the Mexica.
I think on the map I'm going to try to do things so that the historical territories are represented in game. Some civs will start with one city, such as the Incans, others with a couple etc.
I think I will find a way to use most of the what-if units..
What should I do Ozymandias or Shiro about Native military units in the late game(last era, 19th century).
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