The New World Mod

[ShiroKobbure]

Just make them generic European/Spainish, I think the only way for civilization in the Americas to avoid colonization would be to completely Westernize and probably to allow immigration.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Your probably right. Would said westernization follow a similar path to Japan's Meiji Restoration?

I know the Cherokee attempted something like that during the 1700s and 1800s. Their efforts make the Cherokee today the most populous native people and nation.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Yes I think Japan understood what it had to do to not be colonized. And I think the Cherokee would have been more successful if it weren't for Andrew Jackson. Or if the CSA won

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Yes I think Japan understood what it had to do to not be colonized. And I think the Cherokee would have been more successful if it weren't for Andrew Jackson. Or if the CSA won

Yeah, Andrew Jackson did more to hurt the native tribes here than probably any other person in history. He grew up hating Native Indians after a traumatic incident when he was a child, and that hate only grew when he lead the union campaign to oust the Seminole from Florida.

Anyway if the Cherokee were never uprooted then I could see them forming a very formidable nation. Although the Mapuche in South America tried to westernize as well. It worked until the very early 20th century, when several S.American countries invaded at once.

 

[Ozymandias]

What should I do Ozymandias or Shiro about Native military units in the late game(last era, 19th century).

Aside from a number of your own units thumbsup there's Sandris' wonderful, "Native American Flintlock" pack ("Power Of American Natives Pack 1") and "Indian Horseman"; Dom Pedro II's, "Inca Musketman"; I'd have a look at the Persian Rocket and Mortar units from imperator1961's "Special Pack 2" (and, personally, I'd look into his Indian sub-continent unit packs for, e.g., artillery & cavalry, as well as his - yes - Chinese units Packs I & II - remember, we ARE talking Civ scale here); his "Wild Wild West" pack for some cavalry; lastly, LouLong's, "Last Of The Mohicans" mod. Plus the Usual Suspects plethora of ships.

Cheers,

Oz

 

[Blue Monkey]

On the subject of potentially non-Europeanized indigenous civs both the Iroquois Confederacy & the Diné are worth consideration. As recently as 1990 there was armed-conflict between constituent tribes of the Confederacy and the Canadian gov't. The Diné are fairly autonomous & looking at the architecture of Diné gov't buildings is a good indication of how their culture might have developed independently. Diné are also members of the Shadow Wolves deployed to Afghanistan - saying they're "trainers is like saying US troops were deployed to Vietnam as trainers. Diné warriors - 19th c. (b&w, color) & 20th c. (1, 2)

Taking a risk as someone not specifically requested to chime in: The Coureur des Bois by Sandris is another potential unit for any civ in North America.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Thankyou for the suggestions guys. I will have to make a document noting all the different native units. I know most of them from years of working with them, but there has apparently been quite afew made during the time I was away from this site.

Blue there was really a Canadian Iroquois war recently? That is interesting.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Not a war - a smaller scale armed conflict. I remember watching some news clips of Mohawks with assault rifles holding off RCMP & Canadian troops. At one point it threatened to spread to other tribes on both sides of the border. There was even talk of the Sioux in both Canada & the US getting involved. They were fully ready to take on the Royal 22nd Regiment. It is only because Mohawk warriors listened to their tribal elders that it did not become a war. I think that says a lot about the viability of indigenous cultures.

 

[Axolotl]

There is also a thriving Lakota separatist movement in the upper Midwest. Google "Lakota Oyate" and "Republic of Lakotah."

 

[Ozymandias]

... And don't forget the 1973 Wounded Knee "Incident" - 3 KIA.

-Oz

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

So it is possible for a tribe to not europeanize and survive. What would the parameters be for a civilization to stick to their own ways and not be enslaved or colonized?

 

[Blue Monkey]

So it is possible for a tribe to not europeanize and survive. What would the parameters be for a civilization to stick to their own ways and not be enslaved or colonized?

Heartaches & Grease. Or maybe adamant refusal. Or maybe covert transmission of culture.

Ask the Jews. Ask the Dine. Ask the Irish. Ask the Japanese.

Or maybe clarify what you mean by parameters.

 

[Ozymandias]

For a New/Old interaction in Civ to work, you must first assume far greater resistance to Old World diseases ...

That having been said, I see three routes: (1) asymmetric (guerilla) warfare -- relatively high MP Invisible units (2) techno-mimicry, like the Aztec Mortar unit, and/or (3) accommodation/adaptation of Old World ways, with the New World Civs gradually taking on a more Old World color.

Best,

Oz

 

[Quinzy]

An example might be to look at how Japan incorporated Western technology;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NanbanDo.jpg

A better example might be to look to the Middle East, Africa, or Central Asia.

One might get a semblance of traditional clothing, with Western underlay. Traditional head-dresses and Western breastplates, for example. Or fully traditional attire with Western weaponry.

They might even go so far as to fully Westernise.

But don't forget that as much as a people might resist Westernisation, there are those who embrace it.

I agree with Ozzy; if one is to follow the hypothetical route, one must choose one of the above options.

There are certain inherent social and cultural implications with each. The above decisions matter more than just unit aesthetics.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Then I think that should be a major factor starting in the third age of the mod.

I could have three possible tech trees, with each one representing a certain path, the problem is I'd want those to be optional techs, so that AI doesn't research them all, yet that would create the problem of the AI only research the techs needed to advance an era.

Any ideas?

Blue by parameters I meant ways in which a native people could not embrace anything western and survive.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

What about deleting the Mississippians, and adding the Choctaw, since you already have the Cherokee, and both Choctaw and Cherokee were the descendents of the Mississippian culture. And I'd put them both in the MesoAmerican culture group, since they lived in mounds during the start of the mod.
On that subject, can you think of any good females for a Cherokee head?

Also do you have a map yet?
You have Hawaii, which is pretty far away, but I guess you could just move it close to North America, and put a strip of Ocean that wont be cross-able until a certain boat is built.

And also, what about the Comanche? Since I just made a head. My Geronimo head can be changed I think to be used for a Anasazi head.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

Actually that is a good idea. I could have both the Choctaw and Cherokee in the mod to represent the Mississippian culture. The Comanche are another good idea. Would they have a pressence either as a tribe or by some ancestor culture in the 1000 A.D. time period?

As for a map, there are afew by Civarmy and others I have in mind. Most of them would need abit of editing to work right, but I knew that coming into this project because the way the minor civ/mercanary civ system is going to work, I will need to heavily micromanage resources on the world map.

I will probably have all of north and south america on the world map, the islands in the caribbean, as well as Hawaii and Rapa Nui.

I'm considering making minor civs available earlier, in the form of minor tribes. In case you couldn't tell I was/am a huge fan of Age of Empires 3

 

[ShiroKobbure]

You're right, how about the Shoshone?
How do minor tribes work?
AoE 3 was pretty fun, it was too bad you couldn't play both expansions in one game.

Any ideas for leaders?
I've made:
-Hawaii, Kamehameha IV (maybe we can make him young Kamehameha I? Or just keep him IV, or just Kamehameha and leave it open to the imagination?)
-Choctaw, Peter Pitchlynn (Hatchootucknee)
-Lakota Sioux, Crazy Horse
-Apache, Geronimo (but we can use him for Anasazi I think)
-Nez Pierce, Chief Joseph
-Haida, Juugang-yaahl (made up, means small raven in Haida)
-Comanche (Shoshone), Quanah Parker (but change the name to Rabbit Tail or another Shoshone leader)
-Navajo, Manuelito, I haven't made him yet
-Zapotec, Benito Juárez, change the name to a Zapotec ruler.
-Ute, Chipeta (the Ute are not on your list, but you have a gap in Canada and North central USA, maybe you can find a tribe and use the head as a leader.

 

[Sword_Of_Geddon]

The Shoshone would work. Minor tribes would work like minor civs in AoE III, basicly if you have access to a minor civ resource you are able to build that minor civ's unique unit.

Good choice of leaders. I'll consider adding the Ute.

 

[clearmurky]

I love AoE III! The Cherokee rifleman is the best Indian unit.